Rake and Pounce confusion? [2004 Thread]

[Legildur]

My elven druid has just obtained the Wildshape ability at 5th level, and I note that he can wildshape into a leopard (3HD medium animal). But I'm confused about the execution of rake attacks and how it works with pounce and improved grab.

From the leopard description in the 3.5E SRD:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 1d3+1.

Pounce (Ex): If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

But also from the SRD we have the more general description of the abilities:

Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

Noting that the general description for improved grab states that a creature can only use this ability (unless stated otherwise) on another creature at least one size category smaller, what are the answers to the following:

1. Does a leopard automatically get 2 rake attacks on a pounce?

2. Even if it isn’t successful with establishing a hold using improved grab?

3. How many rake attacks does a leopard get (assuming successful improved grab with the bite) for a single bite attack?

4. How many rake attacks does a leopard get (assuming successful improved grab with the bite) for a full attack round (1 bite and 2 claws)?

5. Leopard description says that it can get rake attack after establishing a hold, but the general rake description says it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn. Which one is right?

 

[Thanee]

1. Yes.
2. Doesn't matter.
3.-5. When successfully grappling, on the next round, during a full-attack action, the leopard can execute 2 rake attacks in addition to the one natural attack allowed during a grapple.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rath the Brown]

I'm going to have to disagree with most of what Thanee said.

1. Does a leopard automatically get 2 rake attacks on a pounce?

1. Yes.

1. No, a leopard (or any other creature with rake) does not automatically get ANY rake attacks on a pounce; re-read the description (emphasis mine)

Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

2. Doesn't matter.

It DOES matter; see above. The creature must be grappling before it can use rake to gain extra attacks. If the creature was not successful in establishing a hold, it does not gain rake attacks. Pounce just allows a creature to make rake attacks in the round that it started the grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

3.-5. When successfully grappling, on the next round, during a full-attack action, the leopard can execute 2 rake attacks in addition to the one natural attack allowed during a grapple.

Mostly true.

3. NONE. To get more than your normal single attack, you must take a full-attack action.

4. Two. Since the Rake ability states that a creature usually gets two attacks, and the leopard's description doesn't counter Rake's description, the leopard would get two.

5. They are both right. The Improved Grab in the leopard description is telling you that once the free grapple attempt is successful, the creature is now grappling and can rake as normal per the rake description, which states that a creature cannot rake in the turn that the creature initiated the grapple. Pounce is the exception since it clearly states that a creature can use rake in the same turn.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1. No, a leopard (or any other creature with rake) does not automatically get ANY rake attacks on a pounce.

The Pounce description says it does.

It says that on a charge, you get a full attack, including two Rake attacks.

You certainly can't charge if you were grappling at the start of the round.

So you can't charge and make a full attack (including two Rake attacks) if you were grappling at the start of the round.

Therefore the Pounce ability, which specifically states you can charge and make a full attack (including two Rake attacks), is providing an exception to the rule that you can Rake if you were grappling at the start of the round.

Or, if you prefer, you're not using the Rake [Ex] special attack, which allows the leopard to make two 1d3+1 rake attacks. The Rake [Ex] special attack requires you to be grappling at the start of the round.

Instead, you're using the Pounce [Ex] special attack, which also allows the leopard to make two 1d3+1 rake attacks. But since he's not using the Rake [Ex] special attack, just the rake attacks that Rake [Ex] also provides, he doesn't suffer the restrictions that Rake [Ex] imposes.

-Hyp.

 

[Will]

OH! I think I understand what it means!

A full attack is bite +6 and 2 claws +1. A rake is a claw with no penalty, at +6.

Sooo... a pounce is a full attack, with two rakes...

It's not that you also get two rakes, it's that you get a bite and two claw attacks, all at +6.

I think.

I think I'm a genius. Don't spoil my fun!

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's not that you also get two rakes, it's that you get a bite and two claw attacks, all at +6.

I think.

No, a Pounce for a leopard is a bite at +6, two claws at +1, and two rakes at +6. +2 for charging.

Basically, the "claws" are his front paw attacks, and the "rakes" are his back paw attacks.

If he's grappling, he's essentially "hanging on" with his front paws. Try it with a cat some time - the cat will scrabble at you with his back claws.

If he Pounces, he's jumping at you with all four feet off the ground, so he attacks with all four feet.

If he's neither grappling nor pouncing, he'll swipe at you with his front claws and he'll bite... but he needs his back paws to stand on, so he can't rake.

Tease a cat, and you'll find out all about it

-Hyp.

 

[Will]

I'm actually familiar with cats... I'm just having trouble visualizing it. I suppose the clawing/grabbing with the forepaws is part of the entire maneuver, not a separate thing.

You are persuasive, smurf. At least to me...

 

[Legildur]

Okay, let's se if I have this right:

1. If the leopard charges, it can use its Pounce (Ex) special attack to get a bite attack at +6 (1d6+3), 2 claws at +1 (1d3+1) AND 2 rakes at +6 (1d3+1)? (and +2 to all these for the charge bonus)

2. For a single attack, the leopard could make a bite attack at +6 (1d6+3) and then use its Improved Grab (Ex) to start a grapple as a free action and if it establishes a hold it can then use its Rake (Ex) ability to make a single rake attack at +6 (1d3+1)? (or is it 2 rakes?)

3. For a full attack, the leopard could make a bite attack at +6 (1d6+3) and 2 claws at +1 (1d3+1) and then, if it hit with the bite attack, it could use Improved Grab (Ex) to start a grapple as a free action and if it establishes a hold it can use the Rake (Ex) ability to make 2 rake attacks at +6 (1d3+1)?

Sorry if I seem confused about Rake, but the leopard description seems to override the general Rake (Ex) description about needing to be grappling at the start of its action to make a rake attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sorry if I seem confused about Rake, but the leopard description seems to override the general Rake (Ex) description about needing to be grappling at the start of its action to make a rake attack.

I don't think the Improved Grab text overrides Rake in this case. "... it establishes a hold and can rake", I think, means that because it's established a hold, it will be able to Rake next turn. That certainly seems to be what the Rake description implies, but it's not crystal clear in the leopard's Improved Grab text.

-Hyp.

 

[Legildur]

Sounds sensible to me.

So, charge attack is bite (plus improved grab if it chooses), 2 claws, 2 rakes.

Single attack is bite and improved grab to establish hold. Next round, if hold established, grapple check for bite damage and 2 rakes.

Full attack is bite and 2 claws. If use improved grab on bite then can't use claws since that is attacking with a natural weapon and requires a successful grapple check? But next round could make 2 rake attacks?