D&D 5E Quickling VGtM CR 1 or CR 5

[cooperjer]

I'm working on populating the Howling Hatred temple in Princes of the Apocalypse for level 9 & 10 PCs. There is a room that has an individual cloaker. This is a CR 8 creature that is supposed to use hit and run tactics, but is not equipped for that combat style, so I thought I would add something to make the encounter more interesting. I browsed through VGtM and ran across the Quickling. The quickling fits with the theme of the air elemental group, and I guess I could see a cloaker being tolerant of the chaotic, mischievous tiny creatures hanging out in the same area as it.

The question I have in using a quickling is what is it's CR? I see that VGtM lists it at CR 1. That is great, but it has 10 HP, an AC of 16, and attacks against it have disadvantage if it isn't incapacitated. However, I'm thinking these are one hit kills vs the level 9 or 10 PCs and will not significantly affect the encounter. Therefore, I equipped them with leather armor, increased their Dex to 26, and gave them about 30 HP. I gave them the goblin feature of of Nimble Escape and added one attack as part of their Multiattack (4 attacks now). If I use the DMG tools on page 274 this shows to be a CR 16.5. I find this very hard to believe. The calculations for the quickling in VGtM is about a CR 5. Would you think there is a -4 shift on the quickling based on play test or would you feel there is something closer to a 1/5 multiplier to the quickling.

My instincts are telling me the changes I did to the quickling for my game put it near a CR 3 +/- 1. What would you call it?

 

[Demetrios1453]

The CR I'm calculating (and I'm not at home so I'm winging it a bit - the Dex bonus is +6, right?) is CR 3. I remember when first reading it (as Quicklings are old favorites of mine) that, despite only having 10 hit points, a single one would easily slaughter at least a couple of 1st level characters in a typical encounter (zoom in, catch a relatively isolated low AC party member, and then do 18 average damage if two attacks hit, 24 if all three hit, and then zoom back out of movement range before anyone can do anything)...

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[Demetrios1453]

Now that I'm home and have access to both my DMG and VGtM, it's definitely a CR 3 (offensive CR is 5, defensive CR is 1/4, which averages to 2.625). I'm not sure why it's a CR 1 in the book, since, as I said, it would be pretty deadly for a typical 1st level party. Honestly, the hit dice for quicklings are really off, on the low side, compared to the rest of its stats, and could easily be raised a bit to make it a more balanced monster.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm working on populating the Howling Hatred temple in Princes of the Apocalypse for level 9 & 10 PCs. There is a room that has an individual cloaker. This is a CR 8 creature that is supposed to use hit and run tactics, but is not equipped for that combat style, so I thought I would add something to make the encounter more interesting. I browsed through VGtM and ran across the Quickling. The quickling fits with the theme of the air elemental group, and I guess I could see a cloaker being tolerant of the chaotic, mischievous tiny creatures hanging out in the same area as it.

The question I have in using a quickling is what is it's CR? I see that VGtM lists it at CR 1. That is great, but it has 10 HP, an AC of 16, and attacks against it have disadvantage if it isn't incapacitated. However, I'm thinking these are one hit kills vs the level 9 or 10 PCs and will not significantly affect the encounter. Therefore, I equipped them with leather armor, increased their Dex to 26, and gave them about 30 HP. I gave them the goblin feature of of Nimble Escape and added one attack as part of their Multiattack (4 attacks now). If I use the DMG tools on page 274 this shows to be a CR 16.5. I find this very hard to believe. The calculations for the quickling in VGtM is about a CR 5. Would you think there is a -4 shift on the quickling based on play test or would you feel there is something closer to a 1/5 multiplier to the quickling.

My instincts are telling me the changes I did to the quickling for my game put it near a CR 3 +/- 1. What would you call it?

Something doesn't look right about the CR of the VGtM quicklings... OK, let's find out what CR your "Howling Hatred" Quicklings are. We'll confer with the DMG p. 274...

(1) Understanding VGtM Quickling
We need to figure out the value of the quickling's defensive trait Blurred Movement; I already am pretty sure Evasion has no impact on CR calculations, so leaving that out of the equation.

HP 10, AC 16

So its defensive CR (without Blurred Movement) is 1/4

3 attacks dealing 8.5 per attack
= 25.5 DPR with +8 to hit

So its offensive CR is 5!

Take the average... (5 + 1/4) / 2 = CR 2.65

And that's without taking Blurred Movement into account!

My conclusion is that the VGtM Quickling was mistakenly assigned a CR 1. Its CR should be 3 like others are saying (I'd round up 2.65 due to Blurred Movement).

(2) "Howling Hatred" Quickling, Defensive CR calculation
HP 30
AC 19 (leather armor, and Dex 26 / +8) >> effective AC 23
Blurred Movement –– ?
Evasion –– has no impact on CR calculations
Nimble Escape –– increase effective AC by +4

So it's defensive CR (without Blurred Movement) is 3.

(3) "Howling Hatred" Quickling, Offensive CR calculation
4 attacks dealing 10.5 (1d4+8) damage per attack
= 42 DPR with +10 to hit

So its offensive CR is 8.

(4) "Howling Hatred" Quickling, Total CR

Take the average... (3 + 8) / 2 = CR 5.5

Since that's without taking Blurred Movement into account, I suggest rounding up to CR 6.

(5) Encounter Building

A party of five 10th-level PCs would have a Deadly encounter with a Cloaker (CR 8) and two "Howling Hatred" Quicklings (CR 6).

Tl;dr Your Quickling is CR 6

 

[Jamie Trevino]

Lore wise Quicklings are tricksters not murderers. It’s more a tool to screw with a party by stealing things or to otherwise inconvenience them. So it’s CR1 because it’s “non hostile” and should be played as running instead of fighting unless cornered.

Or at least that’s how it seems to me, but 5e is screwy with its CR, with lots of things being more or less deadly than you would infer from CR. Like Shadows able to straight wipe parties much higher than their level, or Rakshasa being fragile compared to everything else it’s level (though able to dominate anything lower, and more likely supposed to be played as a hit and run character).

 

[dave2008]

We need to figure out the value of the quickling's defensive trait Blurred Movement; I already am pretty sure Evasion has no impact on CR calculations, so leaving that out of the equation.

Evasion absolutely effects CR. I don't have my books or spreadsheets with me at the moment, but I would guess it adds 1 or 2 to the effective AC of the Quickling.

EDIT: I just checked the DMG and the quickling's "Evasion" is identical to the Demilich's "avoidance" which increases the effective AC by 1.

 

[Stalker0]

Now that I'm home and have access to both my DMG and VGtM, it's definitely a CR 3 (offensive CR is 5, defensive CR is 1/4, which averages to 2.625).

I've felt that Volo's and Mordenkainens's Tome have upped the ante a bit on CR. In general, I think CR for CR monsters are tougher in the later books than in the MM. But that's feeling based on reading through them, would be interesting to run them through the CR math exercises and determine if that holds up.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A single magic missile takes the quickling out. A sield spell will make the quickling probably miss. 10hp is low. Compared to a goblin with a very deadly cr 1/4 i think the CR is ok.