D&D 5E quick wild shape question

[pukunui]

Hi all,

I'm putting together an orc druid who can wild shape as a baddie for an upcoming session, and I'm just wondering whether the druid would retain her own proficiency bonus when she wild shapes, or does she take the beast's proficiency bonus instead? The text for wild shape seems to suggest the latter, but I'm not 100% sure.

Basically, I've taken an Orc Eye of Gruumsh, turned them into an old lady druid, and made it so she can wild shape into a saber-toothed tiger, and I just want to make sure I've done all the math correctly.

Here's the base statblock:
[sblock=orc druid]Orc Druid
Medium humanoid (orc, shapechanger), neutral evil
AC 13 (hide; 16 w/ barkskin)
HP 45 (6d8 + 18)
Spd 25 ft. (cos she's old)
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STR 14 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 14
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Saves Int +3, Wis +6
Skills Intimidation +5, Nature +6*, Religion +3
*Expertise (just 'cos)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Orc
Challenge 5 (1,800 XP)
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Aggressive. As a bonus action, the orc druid can move up to her speed toward a hostile creature that she can see.
Combat Wild Shape (2/Rest). As a bonus action, the orc druid can magically assume the shape of a beast that she has seen before with a CR as high as 2. While transformed, she can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d8 hit points per spell slot level expended.
Gruumsh's Fury. The orc druid deals an extra 4 (1d8) damage when she hits with a weapon attack (included in the attacks).
Spellcasting. The orc druid is a 6th level spellcaster. Her spellcasting ability is Wisdom (DC 14; +6 to hit). She has the following druid spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): druidcraft, guidance, magic stone
1st level (4 slots): animal friendship, goodberry, entangle, longstrider
2nd level (3 slots): barkskin, pass without trace, spike growth
3rd level (3 slots): call lightning, dispel magic

Actions
Spear. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft. or range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 9 (1d6 + 2 + 1d8) piercing dmg, or 11 (2d8 + 2) piercing dmg if used with two hands to make a melee attack.

Challenge Rating
Defensive: 6 (45 hp + 104 hp for two uses of wild shape + AC 16 w/ barkskin)
Offensive: 4 (+6 to hit; Dmg: 20 [14 + 16 + 16 + 16 / 3])
Final: 5

Does that look right? Or should I only count the extra hit points from her beast form once (even though she can theoretically use wild shape twice), or should I just double her effective hit points, or what? In either case, her defensive CR would only be 3, which would make her final CR 4 (rounded up from 3.5).[/sblock]
And here's what I've got for when she's a tiger (assuming she doesn't keep her own proficiency bonus):
[sblock=saber-toothed tiger form]Saber-Toothed Tiger Form
Large beast, neutral evil

AC 12 (16 w/ barkskin)
HP 52 (7d10 +14)
Spd 40 ft.
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STR 18 DEX 14 CON 15 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 14
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Saves Int +2, Wis +5
Skills Intimidation +4, Nature +4, Perception +6, Religion +2, Stealth +6
Senses passive Perception 16 (21)
Languages —
Challenge —
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Aggressive.
Gruumsh's Fury.
Keen Smell.
Pounce.
Primal Strike. The orc druid's attacks are magical.

Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target.
Hit: 14 (1d10 + 5 + 1d8) piercing dmg.

Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target.
Hit: 16 (2d6 + 5 + 1d8) slashing dmg.[/sblock]
Have I done anything wrong? Have I missed anything? Please let me know.

Cheers!
Jonathan

 

[PnPgamer]

Using wild shape is like a putting a coat on top. The hp presented for sabertooth tiger should become on top of the hp of the druid, a temporary hp if you will. Replace everything else by the stats of the sabertooth tiger, except mental ability scores. When tiger hp run out, the orc returns to its original form and excess damage goes to her hp

 

[pukunui]

The hp presented for sabertooth tiger should become on top of the hp of the druid, a temporary hp if you will.

Exactly. but since she can potentially use Wild Shape twice during any given combat, do I then add 2x the hp of the tiger to determine effective hp? So, in this case, 45 + 52 + 52 = 149. Couple that with AC 16 from barkskin and you have a defensive CR of 6. Is that correct?

Replace everything else by the stats of the sabertooth tiger, except mental ability scores.

So I should use the tiger's PB of +2, rather than the druid's (presumed) PB of +3? Also, it looks like I am supposed to tweak anything based off the druid's mental ability scores, as well. So like she hasn't got proficiency in Perception as a druid, but the tiger does, but because her Wisdom is higher than the tiger's, the Perception bonus goes up by a corresponding amount, right?

And since the tiger's bite and claw are technically weapon attacks, she can add her bonus damage from Gruumsh's Fury while wild shaped, right?

 

[PnPgamer]

Exactly. but since she can potentially use Wild Shape twice during any given combat, do I then add 2x the hp of the tiger to determine effective hp? So, in this case, 45 + 52 + 52 = 149. Couple that with AC 16 from barkskin and you have a defensive CR of 6. Is that correct?

So I should use the tiger's PB of +2, rather than the druid's (presumed) PB of +3? Also, it looks like I am supposed to tweak anything based off the druid's mental ability scores, as well. So like she hasn't got proficiency in Perception as a druid, but the tiger does, but because her Wisdom is higher than the tiger's, the Perception bonus goes up by a corresponding amount, right?

And since the tiger's bite and claw are technically weapon attacks, she can add her bonus damage from Gruumsh's Fury while wild shaped, right?

I doubt it was meant that you can wildshape while wildshaped. Nothing prevents her to wildshape again, though. I think skill proficiencies carry over to forms, while also gaining the tigers, not sure about saves.

Also abilities from classes or god blessings should work, so go wild with your gruumshy fury tiger. Agressive ability should be usable as well.

Also i am sorry i dont have my phb so i cant check, working on my memory as i play a druid. Currently traveling and posting from phone.

 

[pukunui]

I doubt it was meant that you can wildshape while wildshaped. Nothing prevents her to wildshape again, though.

Yeah, I was just referring to the fact that she can transform into a tiger again if she gets knocked back into her own form, so she can potentially have a total of 104 temp hp on top of her 45 base hp over the course of the fight (but not all at once). Hence why I'm wondering if I should count the 52 hp from the tiger twice when determining her CR or just once (or not at all).

 

[PnPgamer]

Yeah, I was just referring to the fact that she can transform into a tiger again if she gets knocked back into her own form, so she can potentially have a total of 104 temp hp on top of her 45 base hp over the course of the fight (but not all at once). Hence why I'm wondering if I should count the 52 hp from the tiger twice when determining her CR or just once (or not at all).

Doubtful. You may increase the danger cr, but xp based should be the same. Killing an npc druid shouldnt yeald any more xp than killing a fighter npc of same level.

 

[pukunui]

Doubtful. You may increase the danger cr, but xp based should be the same. Killing an npc druid shouldnt yeald any more xp than killing a fighter npc of same level.

OK, so what do you think the CR of the orc druid I posted above should be?

 

[PnPgamer]

OK, so what do you think the CR of the orc druid I posted above should be?

I havent dm'ed yet but maybe the extra abilities grant to a cr of that a 6th level druid and +1 added due to aggressive and gruumsh fury abilities. Not sure how much that would add up to

 

[pukunui]

I havent dm'ed yet ...

Ah. Well, that's the thing. A 6th level druid doesn't have an automatic CR. You have to work it out according to the guidelines in the DMG. The main factors for determining CR are AC, HP, attack bonus and damage. The Shapechanger trait has no effect on CR, but that's probably because it doesn't affect the base creature's HP. Wild Shape grants, in effect, temporary hit points, which I think should be counted somehow. I'm just not sure how exactly.

 

[PnPgamer]

Ah. Well, that's the thing. A 6th level druid doesn't have an automatic CR. You have to work it out according to the guidelines in the DMG. The main factors for determining CR are AC, HP, attack bonus and damage. The Shapechanger trait has no effect on CR, but that's probably because it doesn't affect the base creature's HP. Wild Shape grants, in effect, temporary hit points, which I think should be counted somehow. I'm just not sure how exactly.

It grants way more, extra skill proficiencies, possibly better stats, more attack, more damage. The main downside is supposedly the heinously low ac, whcih should balance it downwards at lesst slightly.