Question on what to call younger siblings of nobility

[NewJeffCT]

I know that the children of the king are princes and princesses.

However, once the oldest son is crowned king, the younger sons remain princes and the younger daughters are still princesses.

However, if the NPC is a Duke or Duchess, what do you call his or her children? How about the Duke/Duchess' younger siblings? (i.e., Duke Dunderhead's younger brother Daron...)

I think the child of a Lord or Lady would just be a Lord or Lady (though, maybe they'd be "Young Lord" or similar). However, it doesn't seem right to me to call the Duke's heir apparent "Duke"? Of course, I could be way off base.

Thanks

 

[SLOTHmaster]

Lord or Lady, I believe.

 

[Gilladian]

For a non-medieval source, try this: Correct Forms of Address

It is referring to the "Regency" period in England (1820-30 precisely) but is close enough to give you a general idea of what proper address is, and how exacting it could be.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I believe all nobles are "landed", although only the heir gets the lion's share of the land. A low-ranking noble might get a few farms.

So the Count of Fere's first son gets a lower title (Viscount of Braggelone), and had his father died would have become the Count of Fere, and his eldest son would be the next Viscount of B.

If the Count of Fere had more than one son, the second son would probably get a lower title (Baron of Town X, I suspect). The second son's job (most likely priest, knight, military officer, etc) would be more important than his noble title. At the lowest ranks, the non-inheriting son would just be called "Sir", as in Admiral Sir Patrick Stewart.

 

[Quickleaf]

I know that the children of the king are princes and princesses.

However, once the oldest son is crowned king, the younger sons remain princes and the younger daughters are still princesses.

However, if the NPC is a Duke or Duchess, what do you call his or her children? How about the Duke/Duchess' younger siblings? (i.e., Duke Dunderhead's younger brother Daron...)

I think the child of a Lord or Lady would just be a Lord or Lady (though, maybe they'd be "Young Lord" or similar). However, it doesn't seem right to me to call the Duke's heir apparent "Duke"? Of course, I could be way off base.

Thanks

My knight PC, son of a baron, goes by this when in a formal court setting:

Sir Valenhail, First Son of Baron Tullus, Knight Baronet of the Order of the Griffin

If he'd been a woman, that would be "Dame" instead of "Sir".

 

[NewJeffCT]

For a non-medieval source, try this: Correct Forms of Address

It is referring to the "Regency" period in England (1820-30 precisely) but is close enough to give you a general idea of what proper address is, and how exacting it could be.

great link - thanks. I'd XP you for it, but I need to spread it around more first.

 

[delericho]

I know that the children of the king are princes and princesses.

However, once the oldest son is crowned king, the younger sons remain princes and the younger daughters are still princesses.

However, if the NPC is a Duke or Duchess, what do you call his or her children? How about the Duke/Duchess' younger siblings? (i.e., Duke Dunderhead's younger brother Daron...)

I think the child of a Lord or Lady would just be a Lord or Lady (though, maybe they'd be "Young Lord" or similar). However, it doesn't seem right to me to call the Duke's heir apparent "Duke"? Of course, I could be way off base.

Well, for gaming, the real answer is "whatever you think appropriate" - just try to be consistent! (And most people will never pick up on the distinction anyway - and may even cry foul if you were to do the research and used the correct title! For example, in "The Tudors", King Henry is addressed as "your majesty", which is actually an anachronism. It should be "your grace", as in "Game of Thrones", but the writers went for the more modern address to avoid confusion.)

I believe that for otherwise-untitled younger siblings, the correct term would be "Sir", but purely by convention. Effectively, it's just a mark of their being of noble birth.

However, it's worth noting that many nobles (and especially senior nobles such as Dukes) carry a large number of titles, and are therefore likely to pass some lesser title on to their children (even younger children) quite early. And thus, they would use whatever the appropriate title would be.

When addressing a noble with multiple titles, generally the most senior address should be used. For example, in the UK, Prince William is the Duke of Cambridge. In Scotland, he's the Earl of Strathearn. However, he should be addressed as "your royal highness", despite the normal address for a Duke being "your grace". (Of course, he also carries a number of military ranks, across all three services, some of them purely ceremonial. When operating in a professional capacity, I believe he is addressed by rank, the same as any other officer - that is, as Lieutenant in the Navy, Captain in the "Blues and Royals" (don't know who they are), and Lieutenant in the RAF.)

 

[S'mon]

IRL it varies by country. In England there were only a limited number of titles, a few hundred, and the younger children of nobles rarely carried any. In other countries like France and Germany (I know the Baron Von Drakenfels!) there would be junior titles and tens of thousands of titled nobles.

For my games it varies by campaign. Eg in my Yggsburgh setting the children of landed nobles (Baron+) are addressed as Lord or Lady, but their siblings and nephews/nieces are just Mister or Miss.

'Sir' is for knights. In England this became a rare title because the Crown monopolised the grant of knighthood. In all cases I believe you had to be knighted to actually be a 'Sir', I've never heard of it as a pure courtesy title (except in the sense that we use it today).

 

[Balesir]

Well, for gaming, the real answer is "whatever you think appropriate" - just try to be consistent!

Right! Although, it helps a bit to keep it "plausible sounding" to some degree.

I believe that for otherwise-untitled younger siblings, the correct term would be "Sir", but purely by convention. Effectively, it's just a mark of their being of noble birth.

Historically, no. As S'mon says, "Sir" is reserved for knights until quite recently, although most sons of nobles (Baron and up) would tend to be knighted if they wanted to complete the training.

The general term for lesser progeny of nobles - i.e. those who do not hold lesser titles of the family/clan in their own right - would be "Lord" or "Lady".

Captain in the "Blues and Royals" (don't know who they are)

They are one of the (two) household (guard) cavalry regiments, the other being the Life Guards. The official regimental title is "The Royal Horse Guards and 1st Dragoons"; they are the guys in blue tunics under shiny breastplates and helmets with horsehair plumes you see on guard outside Royal palaces and such like.

 

[Dioltach]

Here's an interesting bit of trivia: in Scotland, the heir apparent (whether the son or younger brother or otherwise) of a peer was called the Master. See the Lymond Chronicles by Dorothy Dunnett, for example, where Frances Crawford is the Master of Culter until his brother, Baron Culter, has a son.

(As an aside, I believe that everyone should read the Lymond Chronicles and Dorothy Dunnett's other books as a matter of principle.)