Question on Shrink Item spell

[FoxWander]

What happens when the spell ends or the item is unshrunk inside a container too small for its unshrunk size? For example- five gallons of alchemist's fire inside a 1 gallon jug. My thinking is that it would explode. Id so, then with how much force? And in an open field how much of an area would be covered?

Another question- How fast do items unshrink? And if something blocks it's expansion, what kind of force does it exert? Example- I cast Shrink Item on a portable ram. When I wedge it between a door and the floor and unshrink it, what happens?

Final question- What happens to shrunken items when carried into an Anti-Magic Field? From the spell description it sounds like it would be stuck in shrunken form while it was within the field. But based on the Glove of Storing (which is based on Shrink Item but, being a magic item, may work differently) it might immediately unshrink. What's your take on it?

 

[Magic Slim]

I think we can take example on what is said in the Enlarge and Reduce spells:

. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature or object attains the maximum possible size, bursting weak enclosures in the process. However, it is constrained without harm by stronger materials—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by growth.

A shrinking object may damage weaker materials affixed to it, but a reduced object shrinks only as long as the object itself is not damaged.

I don't think the spell can be used to produce force or cause damage. Of course, this brings up the question of what happens when the spell ends and the item doesn't have room to expand?

I'd say, the item resizes to the maximum space available, and then is permanently stuck at that size. (That's just me)

The anti-magic field suppresses magical effects, so, IMO, the shrunken items would all return to normal size.

Slim

 

[FoxWander]

the item resizes to the maximum space available, and then is permanently stuck at that size

I don't know. That seems a little weird to me. Also I don't think the Enlarge/Reduce analogy works very well because Shrink Item can work quite differently. Here's a more extreme example- Shrink 5 gallons of alchemist's fire, change it to the cloth form then stuff it and seal it inside a potion bottle? (Or shove it down your hated enemies throat! ) End the spell via command word or Dispel it from a distance. Does it shatter the potion bottle? Ruling that you now have one potion bottles-worth of alchemist's fire seems a little wrong. (What happened to the other 4.9 gallons?)

Also Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell and so should have a bit more "oomph" than 1st level Enlarge/Reduce. I think the level of the spell is the main reason that spell doesn't make a gooey mess when someone is enlarged inside a crawlway.

Finally, I tend to lean towards a more dramatic unshrinking because of the description for the Glove of Storing.
From the 3.5 SRD...

With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. The item is held in stasis and shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are not suppressed, but continue to expire. If an effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly.

(emphasis my own) Now granted that's a magic item and obviously has some different characteristics from the spell in it's prereqs (The stasis and too small to be seen bits especially. Interesting the boost in power you get by just making an item. :wink: ) but it's the only official guidance on how quickly something unshrinks- instantly!

But all this just may be my bias towards the cool gadgets one could make exploiting this effect. (And that might make some lean towards nerfing the idea on that basis alone. ) So does anybody else have any opinions on how the Shrink Items spell works? I'd really appreciate some of those awesome ENWorld insights!

 

[kreynolds]

What happens when the spell ends or the item is unshrunk inside a container too small for its unshrunk size? For example- five gallons of alchemist's fire inside a 1 gallon jug. My thinking is that it would explode. Id so, then with how much force? And in an open field how much of an area would be covered?

Be careful. You're treading on thin ice here. It doesn't take much to piss off a DM with this spell, and all he needs to do is use the same trick on a cannonball, shrink it, slip it into your character's soup, and then....well, need I say more.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Also Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell and so should have a bit more "oomph" than 1st level Enlarge/Reduce. I think the level of the spell is the main reason that spell doesn't make a gooey mess when someone is enlarged inside a crawlway

I strongly disagree.

My firsthand experience is that Shrink Item is a solid 3rd level spell when used as it is intended -- the transport of heavy/bulky items outside of combat. How do you carry 400 lb. of gold when the bag of holding is full of platinum and magic weapons? (Real case.)

Trying to apply modern physics in order to create combat uses for the spell is inappropriate. It is also very easy for the DM to hammer you with countertactics like targetted Dispels or Antimagic.

 

[Corwin]

Be careful. You're treading on thin ice here. It doesn't take much to piss off a DM with this spell, and all he needs to do is use the same trick on a cannonball, shrink it, slip it into your character's soup, and then....well, need I say more.

Funny you should mention that. I once used this spell similarly with my high level evil necromancer. He cast it on a handful of hefty caltrops and had them placed in a pesky magister's breakfast gruel.

Needless to say, it wasn't pretty.

 

[kreynolds]

Needless to say, it wasn't pretty.

Well, every DM has his style, I suppose.

 

[Corwin]

Well, every DM has his style, I suppose.

Yeah. Evil PCs/groups can be difficult and require a certain "style" to pull off. Luckily, this DM made it both fun and challenging.

Good times had by all. I look back on that game with fondness.

 

[Norfleet]

As a DM, I encourage my players to be evil. I actively tempt them to be evil with promises of power, not to mention the benefits of being evil. I make the solutions to messy problems the PCs run into be very simple and transparent....if they're EVIL. Sure, the long-term consequences might not be pretty, but the party is going to skip town next week anyway....right? Muhahahaha.

After all, you're not really being "good" if it's no longer a concious choice, now are you?

Incidentally, that item shrinking spell has interesting applications when applied to weapons-grade radioactives, but everything has interesting applications when applied to weapons-grade radioactives.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Suggestion: Shrink item is a spell intended and balanced to transport items. As such, any ruling which might make it into a potent offensive spell should be very carefully considered. Every offensive use I've heard of can be countered by the following rulings:

1. Shrunken items, regardless of whether they are in felt or normal form are in a type of stasis. Attempts to damage, break apart or use such an item return the item to full size instead.
ie - if you were to shrink alchemists fire, then throw it, it would land on your enemy or on the ground near him and return to full size whole and undamaged. If you were to attempt to fire a shrunken bow, it would return to full size (as your standard action) and then be ready for firing. If you were to attempt to open a shrunken chest full of treasure, it would return to full size, etc etc.

2. Shrunken items return to normal size within the standard action that it takes to activate them (either by throwing them on the ground or calling out a command word). Note that this probably translates to about 3 seconds, and therefore such an expansion is not likely to be describable as "explosive".

3. Shrunken items returning to normal size in a space not large enough for them to do so without forcing an object or creature to distend are destroyed utterly. Alternately you could have them bumped into an alternate dimension or something.

4. If you're throwing (including accurately dropping) something, that's a standard action. Using a command word to return something to full size is a standard action. You cannot do both at once.

5. Only the nominal 'owner' of an item (typically the last guy to touch it) can activate it via a command word.