Question about Hydraulic Push

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have a question about the spell, and possibly of the PF bull rush rules in general.

Hydraulic Push - Pathfinder_OGC

"You call forth a quick blast of water that knocks over and soaks one creature or square. You can use this blast of water to make a bull rush against any one creature or object. Your CMB for this bull rush is equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Hydraulic push extinguishes any normal fires on a creature, object, or in a single 5-foot square which it is targeted against. Magical fires are unaffected."

Since this is a close range spell with a target of a creature or object and no text to say otherwise, I infer that you can create this wall of water in any space within range of the spell (or any open square, at least). Further, the wave of water should be able to travel in whatever direction I dictate, bull rushing the target up to the spell's range.

In other words, I should be able to have it appear on the opposite side of a foe that I'm on and push him towards me, to the side, or whatever else as long as it's a straight line direction.

My friend disagrees. He says that since the spell allows "you...to make a bull rush," that as far as the rules are concerned, you ARE the bull rusher. In addition, he thinks that bull rushing requires that you push the person away from you, and that "back" refers to this (away from you, the bull rusher). So he thinks it effectively originates from your square, you can't put your foe between you and the water.

I think the only reasonable way to interpret "back" is the direction of the bull rush, as any attempt by the foe to resist will be in the opposite direction, and that "back" can only be used relative to the person being bull rushed, not the bull rusher (you're moving forward, not back; he's the one being moved "back").

Further, again, the spell says nothing to imply the effect comes from you or relies on your positioning for its direction of travel, and use the Hydraulic Torrent spell as an example, which as a line effect has to originate from you.

What do you think?

 

[Dingo333]

Looking at the spell, I would have to say you are the correct one

I will note though, that the main point of this spell is to "PUSH" someone in a certain direction and unless there is a handy little hazard available (pit, cliff, chaos beast) you are most likely pushing them away from you

EDIT: During a normal bull rush, it would be straight and originating from you, and you could move with the target. As you are the originator of the normal bull rush, the only way to interperate "back" in that case is away from you as opposed to the spell in which the water is the originator, not you (you can only go south from the north pole)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I will note though, that the main point of this spell is to "PUSH" someone in a certain direction and unless there is a handy little hazard available (pit, cliff, chaos beast) you are most likely pushing them away from you.

The reason this is important is because I'm playing a battlefield control caster with pit spells, and there's also the summoner with them as well. If the enemy is on "our" side of the pit, the summoner's eidolon could just bull rush them into it with a much better modifier than myself with the spell anyway. The whole reason I took the spell was to deal with enemies NOT on the same side of the pit as most of the party.

 

[DumbPaladin]

I think a better place to ask this question would be on Paizo.com, where the majority of the board users are Pathfinder players. PF seems to be in the minority here.

James Jacobs has a long-running thread, and you can pretty much ask him anything, and his responses -- when it comes to actual gaming questions -- seem to be considered carefully before he posts. It's not quite the same as an official FAQ entry, but since the FAQ is likely a long way from being updated, I think it's a good alternative.

paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Community / Off-Topic Discussions / >>Ask *James Jacobs* ALL your Questions Here!<<

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Anyone else with an opinion on this?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'd say that the spell is definitely the bull-rusher, not you, and therefore you can move it in a direction you desire.

On the other hand, it's called hydraulic push, not hydraulic pull, so I can see where your friend is coming from.

 

[Shisumo]

I would honestly rule against you, sadly. The phrase "You can use this... to make a bull rush" in the spell indicates to me that you are in fact the bull-rusher, and are thus limited to pushing things away from you. (The water is the weapon, you remain the attacker, in other words.) The spell allows you to change how you calculate your CMB, but note that it still says it is your CMB, not the spell's (compare it against, say, spiritual weapon, which specifically notes that it is the spell making the attacks, not the caster).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Spiritual Weapon also bothers to specifically state that it attacks from your direction. Even though the spel cannot flank or provide flanking for anyone else anyway.

 

[Shisumo]

Spiritual Weapon also bothers to specifically state that it attacks from your direction. Even though the spel cannot flank or provide flanking for anyone else anyway.

But the only reason why it has to specify what direction the attack is coming from is because it's not the caster making the attack. Attacks made the caster are automatically and self-evidently coming from the caster's direction - it's only when that is not the case that you have to specify.