Pun Pun--- does it work?

[NuSair]

So, after reading about this build in various places, I finally decided to read up on it myself. (here is the build I looked at: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build )


After reading through it myself and going back to track the abilities, I have come across something that doesn't seem to make sense.


Manipulate Form. Here is the text from the listing on wizards.com ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040709a&page=3 )

Manipulate Form (Su): At will, Pil'it'ith can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, he can cause one alteration of his choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconscious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 23 Fortitude negates both the change and the unconsciousness.
Pil'it'ith may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. He may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to Pil'it'ith's corresponding score. Pil'it'ith may also grant the target an extraordinary ability or remove one from it.
The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanent. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.

I bolded and underlined the important part of the text.


Now, where the write up is given of Pun Pun, there is a slight, but rather important change to the text of the ability.

Manipulate Form
At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconscious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude save negates both the change and the unconsciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect.
A sarrukh may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing the overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.
The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanent. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.

You see there is added 'supernatural, or spell like. Manipulate Form is an SU ability. So, by it's text on the WotC site, it cannot be used to give itself (which is essential in the Pun Pun build). Which is where the problem comes up.


Unfortunately, I do not own a copy of the Serpent Kingdoms to look in the book. Or is there errata somewhere that I am missing for this ability?

 

[delericho]

I don't have the book to hand, but I'm reasonably sure the published form does indeed cover Supernatural abilities also.

However, the Pun Pun build still doesn't work - the Manipulate Form power states, "Sarrukh are immune to this effect." In other words, once you have the power, you can't benefit from it.

(And the power is written throughout as saying "Sarrukh can...", so although you could that the strict wording is only that Sarrukh have that immunity, the exact same logic would mean that Pun Pun likewise wouldn't be able to use the power, thus breaking the build.)

 

[Ragmon]

I checked it, and it contains Su and Spell-like.

 

[Dandu]

I don't have the book to hand, but I'm reasonably sure the published form does indeed cover Supernatural abilities also.

However, the Pun Pun build still doesn't work - the Manipulate Form power states, "Sarrukh are immune to this effect." In other words, once you have the power, you can't benefit from it.

(And the power is written throughout as saying "Sarrukh can...", so although you could that the strict wording is only that Sarrukh have that immunity, the exact same logic would mean that Pun Pun likewise wouldn't be able to use the power, thus breaking the build.)

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Pun-Pun have a familiar which he played tag-team with?

 

[delericho]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Pun-Pun have a familiar which he played tag-team with?

He did, but the first two steps in the process were for him and his familiar to grant each other Manipulate Form. Thereafter it "worked" by them using that power repeatedly to get everything else.

The problem being, of course, that once they'd each given the other the power, they were immune thereafter.

 

[TwoSix]

The wording of the ability says that Sarrukhs are immune to the effect, but says nothing that indicates being a Sarrukh is required to use the effect. The only limitation is that the power must be granted to a "Scaled One" native to Toril, which both the kobold and the viper familiar qualify as.

 

[delericho]

The wording of the ability says that Sarrukhs are immune to the effect, but says nothing that indicates being a Sarrukh is required to use the effect.

No, but the power reads:

"At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures."

Fair enough. Since the first step of the Pun Pun build is for his familiar to grant that power to Pun Pun, this should be read as "At will, you can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures."

That should be fairly obvious - although the literal reading is limited to Sarrukh, the fact that Pun Pun (a kobold) has this power alters the wording.

The problem is that the power then says "Sarrukh are immune to this effect."

By exactly the same logic, that needs to be changed to "You are immune to this effect." That is, as soon as Pun Pun gains the Manipulate Form ability, he can no longer benefit from it. And since the rest of the build relies on Pun Pun and his familiar repeatedly using MF on one another, the rest of the build falls apart.

 

[pemerton]

No, but the power reads:

"At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures."

Fair enough. Since the first step of the Pun Pun build is for his familiar to grant that power to Pun Pun, this should be read as "At will, you can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures."

That should be fairly obvious - although the literal reading is limited to Sarrukh, the fact that Pun Pun (a kobold) has this power alters the wording.

The problem is that the power then says "Sarrukh are immune to this effect."

By exactly the same logic, that needs to be changed to "You are immune to this effect."

Your ruling might be a sensible one for balance reasons, but it does not follow by logic alone. The first instance of "a sarrukh" means, roughly, "a bearer of this power". Hence when Pun Pun acquires the power, what is predicated of "a sarruk" can also be predicated of Pun Pun (ie the ability to modify the form of any Scaled One).

But there is nothing to indicate what the second occurrence of "Sarrukh" means. Is it intended to convey that "A bearer of this power is immune to its effect"? Or that "A creature of the mystical lineage of the Sarrukh is immune to this effect"? Or something else again? Only if the first meaning is what is intended does your interpretation go through, but - at least without more information - it's not obvious to me that that was what was intended. I suspect it was something closer to my second suggested meaning - and whether Pun Pun becomes an instance of that simply by acquiring the power strikes me as a further, open, question.

 

[delericho]

Your ruling might be a sensible one for balance reasons...

Well, quite. When presented with a rules ambiguity, it's probably best to err on the side of the ruling that doesn't break the game.

The first instance of "a sarrukh" means, roughly, "a bearer of this power". Hence when Pun Pun acquires the power, what is predicated of "a sarruk" can also be predicated of Pun Pun (ie the ability to modify the form of any Scaled One).

But there is nothing to indicate what the second occurrence of "Sarrukh" means.

Eh, it's all together in the text of the power description (as opposed to being a separate item in the sarrukh description). If we're going to make a text substitution (necessary to make the power work), we really should be consistent about it.

Only if the first meaning is what is intended does your interpretation go through, but - at least without more information - it's not obvious to me that that was what was intended. I suspect it was something closer to my second suggested meaning...

That's fair enough, but if we're talking about intention we can also probably be pretty sure that something like Pun Pun was not the intention!

Even if they were to rewrite the power to make the second interpretation explicit, I would expect them to adjust the wording of the power to be changed to say "A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability other than Manipulate Form or remove one from it" or something to that effect.

Fundamentally, though, Manipulate Form has exactly the same problems as the polymorph set of spells (and, of course, the abuse is linked to those very spells). And we know WotC's frustrations with those!

So... If we're talking RAW, there's enough ambiguity to disallow Pun Pun. If we're talking RAI, it seems pretty clear Pun Pun wasn't intended. In which case, my question becomes: do we really want to defend Pun Pun?

 

[pemerton]

If we're going to make a text substitution (necessary to make the power work), we really should be consistent about it.

But it's not a text substitution. It's a text interpretation, based on prioritising referential intentions over the literal use of a name. Hence the significance of identifying the (potentially divergent) referential intentions on the two different occasions of use.

When presented with a rules ambiguity, it's probably best to err on the side of the ruling that doesn't break the game.

<snip>

if we're talking about intention we can also probably be pretty sure that something like Pun Pun was not the intention!

Even if they were to rewrite the power to make the second interpretation explicit, I would expect them to adjust the wording of the power to be changed to say "A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability other than Manipulate Form or remove one from it" or something to that effect.

Fundamentally, though, Manipulate Form has exactly the same problems as the polymorph set of spells (and, of course, the abuse is linked to those very spells). And we know WotC's frustrations with those!

I agree with all of this. I just don't think we need to take the detour through linguistic/interpretive methodology to get there.

Or, if we are going to use that sort of methodology, let's just cut to the chase: we can interpolate in the phrase "other than Manipulate Form" as a clear referential intention even though it wasn't expressly stated. (Parallel cases in statutory interpretation would be the reading in of jurisdictional limitations, or other sorts of limitations on generality, that weren't expressly stated but were clearly intended as part of the content of what was expressly stated.)