Psionics: Magic or Not

[GSHamster]

This debate is going on in a couple threads, so I thought I'd make a thread just for it.

Is Psionics a form of magic or not?

I am really undecided about it. There are really two strains in the literature.

One strain has what is essentially "mind magic". It's definitely magic, but it centers around the mind and does the standard telepathy/telekinesis/etc. effects.

Examples:

• Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books
• In Jim Butcher's Dresden Files, Harry's apprentice Molly Carpenter is a specialist in this sort of magic
• Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar novels, specifically the abilities of the Heralds

The other strain comes from more modern and futuristic settings. Psionics here may be extraordinary, but it is definitely not supernatural. Psi Cops in Babylon 5, etc.

The major D&D setting that used Psionics, Dark Sun, definitely differentiated between magic and psionics. It even went so far as to give every character a touch of psionics.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I think it should be magic, because game balance. D&D does not, by default, assume that you need a mage to counter another mage, and a priest to counter another priest. (In Savage Worlds, it would be the other way around.) If you want Dispel Magic to work the same for both classes, then everyone's powers should be either magic or natural. I've played enough 1e to know how much the psionic gets away with when the DM isn't prepared for it specifically.

 

[bogmad]

I kind of think it shouldn't be magic, or at least not as default. If the DM isn't prepared for it, he shouldn't allow it in his game.
As for something like "dispel magic" I'd prefer it if most of the psions effects might not need to dispelled the same way a mages or clerics effects might. In 2e I remember being annoyed that a psion could only go invisible to one mind at a time, but looking back it made pretty good sense to keep it from being overpowered when a wizard cast detect invisibility and still couldn't see the guy...

I'll concede that it becomes harder to balance out though if the psionic effects are pretty much exactly the same as spell effects with a different keyword. And I do think the default game should be relatively balanced... And if they are mechanically the same, and it is harder to balance psionics... then. Damn. Did I just argue myself out of my own position? Or did I just argue psionics not be included as default?

[edit: thinking as I type instead of before]Ok, maybe the default should be same as magic for balance reasons but there should be an optional rule to make it "different than magic" with the caveat it may unbalance things if you're not careful? Sounds familiar... dang, and I always disliked that for going against my preference.

 

[Hussar]

Makes life a whole lot easier when psionics is just another kind of magic. I mean, I get why people want it to be different, but, I think it makes the game far too complicated when you separate them.

 

[bogmad]

You may be right... my peeve is that it just seems to affect the fluff that I want so much.
Is there a way that I can keep the fluff I want to say psionics are not magic even if they mechanically are the same? I mean is there a way I can do that other than saying "you can do whatever you want, even if it doesn't make sense I'm not gonna stop you." Can you have them mechanically the same and have either fluff (magic/not magic) equally viable?

Is there a way to make them mechanically different that it would be balanced if, say, dispel magic didn't affect telekinesis, etc?

 

[MerricB]

They're magic. And dwarven women have beards.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I suspect the primary means to balancing non-magic psi is in the hands of the DM. The combat mechanics should be balanced against one another - so it's your job to make sure that your party encounters equal numbers of magic and psi opponents; that the Evil Overlord is as prepared (or as poorly prepared) to deal with enemy Psions as he is enemy Wizards; and that psi-appropriate treasure shows up in the campaign without seeming forced.

 

[Andor]

Psionics, as a concept, only goes back to the 1950s and the early attempts to scientifically analyze "Psychic" abilities and to see if they have any validity. (Long story short, maybe but not reliably.)

So, for my money, they don't really have a place in a fantasy game based on earlier models and genres.

That having been said psionic powers are limited subset of magical powers. Is a Gypsy fortune teller using magic or psionics when she reads the future in a crystal ball? How about Tarot Cards? Goat Entrails?

Denethor and Faramir demonstrated considerable mental powers, apparently a family trait. Is that a sorcerous bloodline or is it psionic gene? What's the difference? Provide proof of your agrument.

I'm on a lot of cough meds right now so if this isn't clear allow me to sum up my position.

1) Psionics are not distinct enough from magic in terms of available abilities to merit a mechanical distinction.
2) Psionics as a pool of natural abilities distinct from the supernatural is a modern concept that post-dates the inspiriational literature of D&D.
3) Therefore Psionics do not deserve a seperate place at the table ala the Arcane/Divine split. (Which has it's own issues but that's another thread.)
4) All that having been said I would not mind if there was a school of mind mages with their own jargon any more than I would mind any other specialist school. They can even hold the pretense of not using magic if they plese but it won't save them in an anti-magic zone.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Clairvoyance, ESP, Precognition, all the other "psychic" abilities... they were all magic spells way back when. The AD&D PH was full of them. So when a Magic-User cast them... yes, they were magic.

So why would a person who only uses psychic abilities not be using magic? Why is Clairvoyance when used by a magic-user considered magic, but when used by a "psionic" character, it's not magic? It's the exact same ability.

To me... a Psion is the equivalent of a Pyromancer. A user of magic that doesn't specialize in a particular school or sphere of magic... but rather a particular keyword of magic (IE all magic tied to a particular theme-- in this case Psychic magic, as opposed to Fire magic.)

 

[Morrus]

It's all just terminology. Some would call The Force magic. In a sense, it is - it's a fictional supernatural ability; it's all magic on one form or another, just with different trappings. D&D is unusual in that it smoodges all of those together into one setting, giving rise to conversations like this. Most fantasy or sci-fi universes just have a single supernatural source of power so the question doesn't arise.