Proposed replacements for turn undead

BigCat

First Post
Hi all. The recent thread on what cleric powers would be appropriate replacements for turn undead finally got me motivated to figure that detail out for my upcoming campaign.
I had a lot of trouble figuring out the balance of these powers - turn undead is actually quite difficult to estimate the power of: In the right circumstance, it is awesome, but in any other context, useless. I also wanted to make sure the alternate powers were also dependent on cleric level, charisma, and gave a bonus for knowledge (religion), just like the original. So here is the breakdown for clerics of the four gods IMC (all associated with elements, obviously):

God of the Sun and Stars: Turn Undead

God of the Sea and Tranquility: Calm Emotions (as the spell), DC = 10+ ½ lvl + cha mod, +2 for 5 or more ranks of knowledge (religion)

God of Earth and Preservation: Receive a bonus equal to cleric level to defensive grapple, bull rush, trip checks. This power is usable as an immediate action, and the cleric receives a +2 bonus for 5 or more ranks of knowl (religion). [no cha mod here - I was afraid it would make the ability too powerful]

God of Air and Storms: Gust of Wind (as the spell), DC = 10+ ½ lvl + cha mod, +2 for 5 or more ranks of knowledge (religion).

What do you think?
 

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In my next campaign, the Turn Undead ability will be replaced with the ability to channel positive energy. At first level, the cleric will receive a bonus Divine feat that will determine just what he can do with this ability. I'm also planning on giving the cleric a bonus Divine feat every 3-4 levels, but I am also planning on giving the Wizard a bonus Metamagic feat every 3-4 levels, so it might be a tad unbalancing otherwise.

Or, you could simply make turning undead a level check or a spell or something. I agree that the turning mechanics are too complicated for their own good.
 

I thought i'd copy-n-paste my solution here from the other thread in case you didn't see it. :)

From My House Rules:


Cleric

Religion plays a big part in the lives of many people of nearly every race. However, merely saying you worship a diety is not enough. Clerics are those who have essentially given themselves over to their deity, offering a life of service in exchange for power in which he may further his and his deity’s goals, and a promise eternal rewards in the afterlife.
Each major religion has a body of devoted clerics. However, clerics make up a very small minority of its worshippers. Clerics train for the next great battle. They know that one day their god will come to them and ask that they lay down their life for their faith. Cleric train and study to make sure they can take as many servant of evil down with them as possible.
Most of the major religions teach that one day, the creatures of the surface world will get their chance to strike at the heart of evil, into the Core to bring the battle to evil’s doorstep. In the end, it is this great battle for which most clerics train.
Clerics must always select a god to worship. Clerics of Cyrillia gain no benefit from worshipping a concept.

Class Variant – Cloistered Cleric: This variant of the cleric focuses less on combat and more on the gathering of knowledge. It may be taken as a variant cleric class. Details regarding the cloistered cleric can be found in Unearthed Arcana starting on page 50.

Spontaneous Domain Casting: The ability to channel positive energy into healing magic, or negative energy into harming magic, is seen as a special gift from the gods as a way to protect the faithful or smite the unfaithful. However, some clerics claim furthering the influence of their god’s chosen domains is of greater importance than the saving or taking the lives of a few.
Upon first taking a level of Cleric, you may choose the Spontaneous Domain Casting special ability instead of the ability to spontaneously cast healing or harming spells. See PHB2 pg. 33 for details.

Turning Undead – some gods do not have any strong feeling either way towards undead. Clerics of these gods have their ability to turn undead replaced with another ability. These abilities still rely on channeling positive or negative energy, and may only be performed the same number of times per day that they would normally be able to turn undead. The Extra turning feat grants extra uses of this ability. Clerics of gods not mentioned here grant undead turning as normal.

Bahamut – Clerics of Bahamut may breathe a cone of silver divine fire 10’ long per level. Those caught within the cone take 1d4 points of damage per cleric level, and may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + Cleric Level + Cha) for half damage. This damage is sacred and is not affected by immunity or protection from fire.

Boccob – Clerics of Boccob may select one arcane spell of a level he is capable of casting each time he gains a level of cleric. He may prepare this spell as a divine spell as if the spell were on his domain list. The total number of arcane spells he can prepare in this manner is equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric.

Correllon Larethian – The cleric gains the Smite Evil special ability. This is exactly like the paladin ability of the same name and may be used a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric.

Ehlonna – Clerics of Ehlonna gain the Animal domain for free. This is a third domain from which he may draw spells. In addition, the cleric may spontaneously cast spells from the Animal domain a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric.

Erythnul – The cleric gains the Smite Lawful special ability. This is exactly like the paladin ability of Smite Evil, except that it can only target lawful creatures, and may be used a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric.

Fharlanghn – You may cast Dimension Door as a spell-like ability. The maximum number of feet you can move with each use of this ability is equal to your level x 10.

Garl Glittergold – You may cast Charm Person as a spell-like ability. Targeted creatures may make a Will save (DC: 10 + cleric level + Cha) to negate its effects.

Gruumsh– You may use a gaze attack on one good aligned creature to deal 1d6 points of damage per cleric. Targeted creatures may make a Fortitude save (DC: 10 + cleric level + Cha) to suffer half damage.

Heironeous – The cleric gains the Smite Evil special ability. This is exactly like the paladin ability of the same name and may be used a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric.

Hextor – The cleric gains the Smite Good special ability. This is exactly like the paladin ability of Smite Evil, except that it can only target good creatures, and may be used a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric.

Kord – You gain the Challenge Opponent ability. As a swift action, you may issue a challenge to any creature with an Intelligence of 5 or more. You need not speak its language. The opponent must have hit dice equal to no more than your level +1, and must succeed on a Will save (DC: 10 + cleric level + Cha). If the target fails, it must accept any challenge you put forth in which the two of you can compete. The competition can be something as important as a fight to the death, or something as simple as a foot race or arm wrestling match. You gain a +2 Strength bonus when rolling ability checks or making attacks against a successfully challenged opponent.

Moradin – Clerics of Moradin gain the Earth domain for free. This is a third domain from which he may draw spells. In addition, the cleric may spontaneously cast spells from the Earth domain a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric.

Obad-Hai – Clerics of Obad-Hai gain the Plant domain for free. This is a third domain from which he may draw spells. In addition, the cleric may spontaneously cast spells from the Plant domain a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric.

Olidammara – Clerics of Olidammara add Move Silently, Hide, and Bluff to their list of class skills. In addition, they can gain a +4 bonus for one skill check using any of these three skills a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric. This bonus must be declared before the skill check is rolled.

St. Cuthbert – The cleric gains the Smite Chaotic special ability. This is exactly like the paladin ability of Smite Evil, except that it can only target chaotic creatures, and may be used a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric.

Tiamat – Clerics of Tiamat may breathe a cone of black divine fire 10’ long per level. Those caught within the cone take 1d4 points of damage per cleric level, and may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + Cleric Level + Cha) for half damage. This damage is sacred and is not affected by immunity or protection from fire.

Yondalla – Clerics of Yondalla add Gather Information and Sense Motive to their list of class skills. In addition, they can gain a +4 bonus on any saving throw a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard cleric. This bonus must be declared before the saving throw is rolled.

Turning Variant – Destruction of the Undead: Clerics use the variant turning rules found on page 87 of the Complete Divine.


Paladin

While clerics usually tend to a religion’s temples and its immediate area, paladins travel the countryside spreading their deity’s dogma, and enforcing its will. The paladin is at once a healer of the sick, and an enemy of the wicked.
Paladins serve as the martial arm of several churches, and while not all deity’s are served by paladins, all paladins serve a deity. The churches that have paladins, and the changes they each make to the paladin class, are listed below:

Bahamut – Instead of turning undead at 4th level, paladins of Bahamut may breathe a cone of silver divine fire 10’ long per level. Those caught within the cone take 1d4 points of damage per paladin level -1, and may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Cha) for half damage. This damage is sacred and is not affected by immunity or protection from fire.
Correllon Larethian – Instead of turning undead at 4th level, the paladin gains the Extra Smiting feat. In addition, he is considered 2 levels higher for the purposes of determining the extra damage gained when smiting.

Heironeous – Instead of turning undead at 4th level, the paladin gains the Extra Smiting feat. In addition, he is considered 2 levels higher for the purposes of determining the extra damage gained when smiting.

Moradin – Instead of turning undead at 4th level, paladins of Moradin add the spells from the Earth domain to the paladins list of spells. In addition, the cleric may spontaneously cast spells from the Earth domain a number of times per day equal to the number of turning attempts he would have in a day if he were a standard paladin.

St. Cuthbert – The paladin gains the Smite Chaotic special ability instead of Smite Evil. This is exactly like the paladin ability of Smite Evil, except that it can only target chaotic creatures. Also, instead of turning undead at 4th level, the paladin gains the Extra Smiting feat. In addition, he is considered 2 levels higher for the purposes of determining the extra damage gained when smiting.

Knight Training: Paladins get this feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting for free at 1st level.

Non-spellcasting Paladin: Instead of learning to cast spells at 4th level, you may select a version of the paladin base class that does not cast spells. This choice must be made the first time the character takes a level in the paladin class. Details regarding non-spellcasting paladins can be found in the Complete Warrior starting on page 13. This option is not available to paladins of Moridan.

Charging Smite: Upon becoming a 5th level Paladin, you may choose the Charging Smite special ability instead of the Special Mount ability. See PHB2 pg. 53 for details.


I'd really like to get some feedback on this since I haven't started the campaign yet.
 

BigCat:
God of the Sun and Stars: Turn Undead.
--I'd say allow them both Turn and Rebuke, whatever the situation warrants, not extra Turn attempts but allow the choice of either. As well, allow them to convert Cure or Inflict spells as the situation warrants. This seems to fit in with the Sun (Healing/Light) and Stars (Harming/Night) motif.

God of the Sea and Tranquility: Calm Emotions (as the spell), DC = 10+ ½ lvl + cha mod, +2 for 5 or more ranks of knowledge (religion)
--Allow clerics to cast either Calm Emotions or something like Water Breathing to match the dual aspects of this deity. Since these are spells, maybe the +2 synergy bonus goes to caster level (mainly for duration of either spell).

God of Earth and Preservation: Receive a bonus equal to cleric level to defensive grapple, bull rush, trip checks. This power is usable as an immediate action, and the cleric receives a +2 bonus for 5 or more ranks of knowl (religion). [no cha mod here - I was afraid it would make the ability too powerful]
--This is a decent option, but unlike your other deities, this is the only one that doesn't have limited uses per day. Name the ability "Stability" or something, and give it limited uses per day activated as an immediate action (that does not provoke AoOs). Have it last 1 R/cleric level and give a bonus of 1/2 cleric level (min. of +1) + Cha mod and allow it to stack with the Dwarven stability power. This makes them very competent grapplers without outshining (Dwarven) Fighters and Monks.

God of Air and Storms: Gust of Wind (as the spell), DC = 10+ ½ lvl + cha mod, +2 for 5 or more ranks of knowledge (religion).
--This spell has even more limited uses than Turn Undead. What about a power called "Wind Funnel"? Last 1R/cleric level and use as either Gust of Wind or Levitate, cleric's choice each round. And just to cover the Storm aspect of the deity, allow Inflict spells to do Electrical damage or maybe each Turn attempt can be used to cast Shocking Grasp as a Wizard of equal level.

Ashrem:
You've got a lot of good ideas there.
--I wouldn't see anything wrong with spontaneously casting the Cure/Inflict spells AND domain spells.
--Fharlanghn: I'd suggest a range of 30-50' X cleric level. This makes the ability useful while not outshining the actual spell and maybe subtract 30' from the distance per passenger the cleric takes with him instead of worrying about caster level, max loads and the effect simply fails if the target destination is a solid space.
--Garl Glittergold: I'd add the +2 synergy to the DC for the 5 ranks of Kn. Rel. to this and maybe to add some variety, roll on the Cleric Level turning table to determine the cleric's level for the DC.
--Gruumsh: Limit it to a 60' range, like Turning.
--Kord: This ability seems wrong, basically forcing even the most non-competitive, slacker, docile person into doing something that they wouldn't have any reason to do (kind of like Charm) which doesn't seem to have much to do with Strength. Instead, maybe the cleric casts a maximized Bull's Strength per Turning attempt on self or allies and a Ray of Enfeeblement on enemies (DC = 10 + roll on Turning cleric level chart + Cha mod + 2 [if 5 ranks of Kn--Rel]).
--Olidammara: Make the bonus = 1/2 cleric level (min of +1) + cha mod. Have it last for 1 R/cleric level and either on Bluff or Hide AND Move Silently.
--Yondalla: The class skills are kind of useless. Clerics get too few skill points to throw into more skills. Instead give them--Luck: Use 1 Turn attempt to gain a +1D6 bonus to any single attack, damage or saving throw roll or +2D6 to any Skill check (cannot be used when Taking 10 or 20).
 

Holy Fire (Su): You summon a burst of holy fire around you as a standard action. The holy flames will only damage to undead within 30 ft. (reflex half, DC 10 + Cha + 1/2 Cleric level), damage = 1d6/cleric level.

This is nice because you will contribute to a fight vs. undead rather than changing it to a non-fight. It's nice for a DM because some undead will resist fire (thanks to a friendly evil cleric, or thanks to being made out of [Fire]-subtype critters).

Alternately:

Holy Ward (Su): You can ward an ally as a standard action. Undead cannot touch your ally (Fort negates, DC 10 + Cha + 1/2 Cleric level) for 1 minute. If your ally attacks anyone, the ward is broken.

-- N
 


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