Polymorph and extraordinary special attacks?

[Plane Sailing]

OK, my sorcerer has just learnt polymorph (subject to coming to an agreement with DM on just what it actually *does*).


I was intrigued by the line about gaining access to extraordinary special attacks, and which would make good forms to take on those grounds.

Poison is specifically mentioned, so the Wyvern has to be a particularly good choice (2d6 CON, 2d6 CON is a heck of a nasty poison to sting anything with!).

If all Ex special attacks are included there are some unsuspected gems which could be used.

Like a MindFlayer extract ability (yuck!)

Or a digesters acid spray (8d6 to one target within 5ft each round or a 4d6 acid cone each 1d4 rounds? Who needs melee weapons?)

I still have some general questions about polymorph that we've not really settled in our own minds, and I wonder whether others have come to a sensible ruling on them.

1. Does polymorph have a size limitation as well as a HD cap?

2. When your (type) changes due to a polymorph, do you get the traits of that type (e.g. you change into an Ochre Jelly(ooze). Do you become immune to crits for having no vital organs? If you *do* have vital organs, where do they go when you squeeze through a 1 inch hole )

3. Any other unexpectedly good attack forms?

Cheers

 

[Hypersmurf]

What does it specifically say about poison? The SRD doesn't mention it... but Polymorph references Alter Self, and Alter Self states that anything separated from the main body reverts... which would make poison, or the acid spray, or a manticore's tail spikes, all ineffective. Sting someone as a wyvern, and the poison leaves the stinger... and reverts to whatever the equivalent is in your natural form, which certainly isn't a Con poison.

The size limitation on Polymorph is debated.

You do gain traits.

-Hyp.

 

[Brekki]

1. The "The new form must be within one category of your normal size" limit from Alter Self is only changed at the underside by Polymorph's "can't cause a subject to assume a form smaller than fine", there is no change in the upper size limit, so if you're medium, the limit is still large.

2. Type change include all the type's natural abilities that are non-ex and non-su, but's it's very difficult to say if some abilities are ex or not.

 

[Plane Sailing]

What does it specifically say about poison? The SRD doesn't mention it...

Poison is specifically mentioned in the 3.5e Polymorph listing as an example of one of the Ex Special Qualities that applies (!)

The size limitation on Polymorph is debated.

You do gain traits.

Are there extant threads where the size limitation is currently being debated, so I can review the various arguments for and against?

n.b. regarding traits I'm assuming that "mental" traits wouldn't be gained since the subject retains their mental stats (so soemone polymorphed into a vermin or ooze wouldn't get its immunity to mind affecting attacks)

Thanks both for the input.

 

[Iku Rex]

1. Does polymorph have a size limitation as well as a HD cap?

Yes. See alter self.

( Debate: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170401 )

2. When your (type) changes due to a polymorph, do you get the traits of that type (e.g. you change into an Ochre Jelly(ooze). Do you become immune to crits for having no vital organs? If you *do* have vital organs, where do they go when you squeeze through a 1 inch hole )

You do not gain extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural special qualities (like immunity to critical hits).

(Debate: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=172940 )

(A search for polymorph on WotC's boards will return lots of threads.)

 

[Philip]

If all Ex special attacks are included there are some unsuspected gems which could be used.


3. Any other unexpectedly good attack forms?

I made a list with all Ex abilities from good 'polymorphable creatures'. The list includes bonus skills etc. I have it at home, however, just of the top of my mind:

The Rust(Ex) ability from the rust monster is one that comes to mind. Who need Rusting Graps? Bye bye Iron Golem.

Another interesting option might be polymorphing into a Naga and thereby gaining Eschew Materials as a racial bonus feat.

The Pounce(Ex) ability from one of the dinosaurs (you get good speed too).

Personally I have had a lot of fun polymorphing into a Remorhaz and then grabbing and swallowing creatures. We ruled that the heat damage from swallowing is (Su), even though it is mentioned under the Swallow (Ex) ability.

The Tendricolous also has an interesting set of (Ex) Grab / Swallow / Paralyze abilities, as does the Chuul.

 

[jgsugden]

Ahhhh ... polymorph ... how do I hate thee? Let me recount the ways ...

There is great amounts of disagreement on how polymorph works. The designers, custserv and internet gurus disagree on many aspects of the spell's workings. The spell description contradicts itself in a few places (ie; you gain poison attacks, but the poison reverts once outside the body, etc ...)

Until WotC provides a clear version of the spell, the best you can do is sit down with your DM and come up with good answers that you both can agree upon (or, that he dictates to you).

Here is a summary of some views:

Andy Collins (the head honco for the 3.5 PHB), on his boards and on the WotC threads (since removed by the switch in the WotC boards) stated that when polymorphed, you gain the extraordinary attacks of the creature as well as all extraordinary attacks and extraordinary qualities of the creature's type gained because you adopt the creature's type(ie; low-light vision from animals, immunity to criticals from plants, etc ...) Extraordinary attacks that involve separation of the body (poison, manticore spikes, etc ...) should work. He hinted, though he did not directly say, that hit points were intended not to change due to a change in constitution because the alter self provision that hit points do not change was intended to apply to ploymorph. When using natural weapons in polymorphed form, you follow natural attack rules instead of normal attack rules for manufactured weapons (ie; you attack with full BAB with your primary weapon and -5 on all secondary weapons - no iterative attacks), though some creature forms (lizardman, troglodyte, etc ...) mix natural and manufactured weapons which result in your normal attack progression with a manufactured weapon and additional secondary attacks with your remaining natural weapons (all performed at BAB - 5 and using 1/2 strength). (NOTE: I follow this version in my games ... it works well enough, though I'd still advocate redoing it from scratch to balance the form choices for the spell around ECL, CR or LA instead of hit dice.)

Custserv has contradicted itself to such an extent that their advice is meaningless. When pointed to an Andy Collins interpretation (from above), they have sometimes said he was wrong (once even commenting, "I don't know who Andy Collins is, but ...") and have sometimes said Andy was 100% correct and that their prior interpretations were wrong.

Net Gurus disagree on much of polymorph's workings, but they tend to agree that hit points do change when constitution changes (mostly based upon a sage ruling that stated that he didn't see any reason why the hit points wouldn't change ... which infers that he didn't see the statement in alter self which is incorporated into polymorph by the first sentence of polymorph)(Note that this interpretation differs from the Andy Collins inference). They have wide areas of disagreement upon how natural and manufactured weapons in polymorphed from may be used. They often disagree on whether abilities like poison or manticore spikes can be used.

I, personally, am working on a new house rule version of polymorph intended to be very easy to use and balanced so that the spell does not grant powers that are too strong for a PC to have at a given level. I decided upon this when I realized that a PC wizard designed for spellcasting (not melee combat) could become significantly more powerful than the PC barbarian in melee combat by casting this spell. I intend to post the version to the house rules section upon completion, if you are interested. My initial results have been promising, though playtesting is still ongoing. If you're interested, keep an eye out on the house rules section ... I should be posting my versions of alter self, polymorph, greater polymorph (a 6th or 7th level version of polymorph) and shapechange by the end of February.

 

[Camarath]

Yes. See alter self.

I am of the opinion that the stated size limitation of Polymorph replaces the size limitation of Alter Self.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Thanks for the varied responses,

Iku Rex thanks for your input and the WotC board references. There certainly doesn't seem to be a unanimity of opinion on these issues yet. Incidentally I don't believe that immune to criticals is given a designation, and as such it is neither Ex, Su or Sp and should be gained if a new form allows it.

Philip I'd be interested to see your list if you have the time to post it here. My DM (quite reasonably) will only let me polymorph into forms I've seen, but that number is slowly growing.

jgsugden I'll keep an eye out for your houserules when they appear, I would be very interested to see what you are planning. In the meantimes we may go with the version you attribute to Andy Collins. As ever, the DM and I will work out a consistent approach for both of our games.

I'll do a search for other threads on ENworld and post links to them on this thread just for completeness

Cheers