Please rate the Blackguard
- Thread starter smetzger
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
1) How well it stacks up with other classes.
Poorly.
As a Pal7/Blk5, you get abilities roughly equivalent to a 5th-level paladin, instead of a 12th-level paladin.
You can lay on hands for 5 * Cha instead of 12 * Cha, for instance.
2) How often a PC will go with this class.
Almost never. Remember, you're an anti-paladin. Role-playing a paladin isn't easy; unless you own BoVD role-playing a totally evil guy is even more difficult.
3) How often an NPC will go with this class.
It's easy to get into...
4) How 'fun' it is to play this class.
Very.
5) How much this class adds to the game.
Quite a bit, if you're into using evil deities a lot
Poorly.
As a Pal7/Blk5, you get abilities roughly equivalent to a 5th-level paladin, instead of a 12th-level paladin.
You can lay on hands for 5 * Cha instead of 12 * Cha, for instance.
2) How often a PC will go with this class.
Almost never. Remember, you're an anti-paladin. Role-playing a paladin isn't easy; unless you own BoVD role-playing a totally evil guy is even more difficult.
3) How often an NPC will go with this class.
It's easy to get into...
4) How 'fun' it is to play this class.
Very.
5) How much this class adds to the game.
Quite a bit, if you're into using evil deities a lot
Nifft
Penguin Herder
NO PC in any game of mine would be allowed to take it. So, it's not flexible as a PC class. For NPCs it's okay, but the PrC requirements are too high -- I'd really prefer a Demon-Knight core class which could be used by cultist enforcers at low level and arch-villians at high levels.
-- Nifft
-- Nifft
I must admit that I am surprised that people don't like this class - especially in comparison with the AA or Ass.
1) How well it stacks up with other classes.
(Psi)SeveredHead, are you aware that the abilities of the two classes stack. So that if you are a paladin 7, black guard 5 you could switch out those 7 levels of paladin and make them black guard levels.
I would rate the relative power of the class to be on the high end.
2) How often a PC will go with this class.
I agree that a PC would almost never take it. However, that is not to say that the PrC is bad. It exists for a different purpose.
3) How often will a NPC go with this class.
I would say not all too often. Afterall, how many fallen paladins are there. However, that is not to say that is a bad thing. I would hope black guards would be sufficiently rare, especially given their power and pizzaz. To have too many would detract from their image.
4) How 'fun' it is to play this class.
I would think that given the right story, this could be very fun to play. You might not feel so good about yourself but it could still be very fun to play. A friend of mine played a paladin who fell from grace and eventually turned to the dark side. The PC eventually was turned into an NPC but that NPC had one of the most extensive and kickass histories I have ever seen and having played with the NPC before as a party member it only added all the more flavor.
5) How much this class adds to the game.
I think this class adds a tremendous amount to virtually any game. In fact, I would say that if there are paladins on the world, then their must be black guards.
I gave this PrC a 10 and I think it is one of the very best PrC's out there. It satisfies the notion of a PrC - existing for a purpose, it has lots of flavor (partly due to its image from earlier editions), and it is tremendously powerful - perhaps more so than a straight paladin.
1.
1) How well it stacks up with other classes.
(Psi)SeveredHead, are you aware that the abilities of the two classes stack. So that if you are a paladin 7, black guard 5 you could switch out those 7 levels of paladin and make them black guard levels.
I would rate the relative power of the class to be on the high end.
2) How often a PC will go with this class.
I agree that a PC would almost never take it. However, that is not to say that the PrC is bad. It exists for a different purpose.
3) How often will a NPC go with this class.
I would say not all too often. Afterall, how many fallen paladins are there. However, that is not to say that is a bad thing. I would hope black guards would be sufficiently rare, especially given their power and pizzaz. To have too many would detract from their image.
4) How 'fun' it is to play this class.
I would think that given the right story, this could be very fun to play. You might not feel so good about yourself but it could still be very fun to play. A friend of mine played a paladin who fell from grace and eventually turned to the dark side. The PC eventually was turned into an NPC but that NPC had one of the most extensive and kickass histories I have ever seen and having played with the NPC before as a party member it only added all the more flavor.
5) How much this class adds to the game.
I think this class adds a tremendous amount to virtually any game. In fact, I would say that if there are paladins on the world, then their must be black guards.
I gave this PrC a 10 and I think it is one of the very best PrC's out there. It satisfies the notion of a PrC - existing for a purpose, it has lots of flavor (partly due to its image from earlier editions), and it is tremendously powerful - perhaps more so than a straight paladin.
1.
Epametheus
First Post
While it's cooler than most PrCs, it's also much weaker than most PrCs -- a blackguard is basically a half-strength paladin with sneak attack.
Gaidan: you can't switch over paladin levels unless you have 11 or more of them. Which still leaves you some deadweight levels of paladin. Sure, you'll gain a couple powers, but I'd rather just have class levels in something else...
Falling and becoming a blackguard is actually a step down in power for a paladin, from what it looks to me. A fighter with cross-class ranks and all of the feats that he's interested in would be better off.
Gaidan: you can't switch over paladin levels unless you have 11 or more of them. Which still leaves you some deadweight levels of paladin. Sure, you'll gain a couple powers, but I'd rather just have class levels in something else...
Falling and becoming a blackguard is actually a step down in power for a paladin, from what it looks to me. A fighter with cross-class ranks and all of the feats that he's interested in would be better off.
Spatzimaus
First Post
As written, it's weak. Players don't take it. You can't really get much benefit out of swapping Paladin levels, since you can't have more than 10 Blackguard levels (before Epic rules). To me its only real use, as written, was as a way to make a "Fallen Paladin" NPC that didn't totally suck. After all, you've just lost all your class abilities, making you a featless Fighter, so ANYTHING is a step up in power.
Of course, IMC we totally reworked Paladins into four core subclasses (LG, CG, LE, CE) with corresponding abilities. "Falling" just involves finding a new patron deity and transferring from one subclass to another.
Of course, IMC we totally reworked Paladins into four core subclasses (LG, CG, LE, CE) with corresponding abilities. "Falling" just involves finding a new patron deity and transferring from one subclass to another.
Mordane76
First Post
1) How well it stacks up with other classes?
I think the Blackguard is a little on the weak side, but all its abilities are in flavor with its roots, and I'm for slightly underpowered PrC.
2) How often a PC will go with this class?
I don't allow evil characters, so my players wouldn't think about trying this class.
3) How often an NPC will go with this class?
I think this class is essential in most standard D&D games -- it's the anti-paladin... and there is always a shadow to the light. I'd use it, but not all the time.
4) How 'fun' it is to play this class?
I like playing evil NPCs, and evil with a purpose and goal is always more compelling. Blackguards can be evil, abhorent, yet filled with that abberant sense of honor, which makes for a fun and compelling character to portray.
5) How much this class adds to the game?
I think it adds a tremendously important facet to evil -- the face of the dedicated warrior for injustice and oblivion. It also fills the important niche of the fallen paladin -- the paragon defaced.
Epametheus -- while a character might be "better served" mechanics-wise by a different class than paladin as the class that lead to the blackguard levels, there is something far more compelling story-wise about the paladin who turned from his virture and traded it for the powers of darkness.
(BEGIN RANT) I'd slap silly any player who said that he was "Warrior for Light that feel from the path and trade his virtue for the powers of darkness" that took levels of something other than paladin before his blackguard levels -- I'd be looking for the "Made in Min/Max-Land" label on his character sheet... That kinda stuff makes me mad!
I know players want to be combat and skill hoes, untouchable and unkillable, but when they sacrifice compelling story elements on altar of min/maxing to do it, I get a little ruffled... (END RANT)
I now return you to your regularly schedule poll, already in progress...
I think the Blackguard is a little on the weak side, but all its abilities are in flavor with its roots, and I'm for slightly underpowered PrC.
2) How often a PC will go with this class?
I don't allow evil characters, so my players wouldn't think about trying this class.
3) How often an NPC will go with this class?
I think this class is essential in most standard D&D games -- it's the anti-paladin... and there is always a shadow to the light. I'd use it, but not all the time.
4) How 'fun' it is to play this class?
I like playing evil NPCs, and evil with a purpose and goal is always more compelling. Blackguards can be evil, abhorent, yet filled with that abberant sense of honor, which makes for a fun and compelling character to portray.
5) How much this class adds to the game?
I think it adds a tremendously important facet to evil -- the face of the dedicated warrior for injustice and oblivion. It also fills the important niche of the fallen paladin -- the paragon defaced.
Epametheus -- while a character might be "better served" mechanics-wise by a different class than paladin as the class that lead to the blackguard levels, there is something far more compelling story-wise about the paladin who turned from his virture and traded it for the powers of darkness.
(BEGIN RANT) I'd slap silly any player who said that he was "Warrior for Light that feel from the path and trade his virtue for the powers of darkness" that took levels of something other than paladin before his blackguard levels -- I'd be looking for the "Made in Min/Max-Land" label on his character sheet... That kinda stuff makes me mad!
I know players want to be combat and skill hoes, untouchable and unkillable, but when they sacrifice compelling story elements on altar of min/maxing to do it, I get a little ruffled... (END RANT)
I now return you to your regularly schedule poll, already in progress...
Celebrim
Legend
For the role it was intended to serve, it is servicable.
What immediately bothered me about the concept was that Paladin and Anti-Paladin weren't in 3rd. ed. the same class. I would have much prefered a core class that was flexible enough (like the cleric) to served as a divine champion of any deity. Divine Champion and similar classes are pretty good, and I think the best solution would be to take the best ideas of the various classes and combine them into one broad core class. If a class named 'Paladin' or 'Anti-Paladin' or 'Blackguard' or whatever is needed, that should have been the PrC.
What immediately bothered me about the concept was that Paladin and Anti-Paladin weren't in 3rd. ed. the same class. I would have much prefered a core class that was flexible enough (like the cleric) to served as a divine champion of any deity. Divine Champion and similar classes are pretty good, and I think the best solution would be to take the best ideas of the various classes and combine them into one broad core class. If a class named 'Paladin' or 'Anti-Paladin' or 'Blackguard' or whatever is needed, that should have been the PrC.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
So a Pal7/Blk3 with Cha 17 can heal himself of 9 hit points per day. A Pal 10 with Cha 17 can heal himself of 30 hit points per day.
In addition, you must be a Pal7/Blk5 to get a fiendish servant (eg a heavy mount) - at 12th-character level (eg Pal7/Blk5) you get a 6 HD heavy warhorse. The 12th-level paladin gets a +6 HD heavy warhorse.
Nope, the blackguard is weak.
You were just checking the granny filter, admit it
I think the assassin's short name is Asn.
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