Playing an Evil or Chaotic Evil Palading or Cleric. Help!

[babinro]

Early on in the 4th edition process my group heard that there will no longer be alignment restrictions on classes. In the spirit of this, we have a player that has been planning to play an evil or chaotic evil Paladin in what is intended to be a generally evil based campaign for our first time through 4E.

Having just received the books, my friend looked over the Paladin to see that they recommend no gods for use of evil alignment...and in addition, nearly all the powers involve radiant damage.

How would you suggest we proceed?

Ideally his character background would suggest he is a follower of Bane. I'm wondering if it would hurt the game balance too much by simply changing all 'radiance' damage types to 'necrotic'. Or does it seem feasible simply to say, 'Bane has blessed you with the power of 'good' so that you can use your enemies powers against them'.

Just curious how DM's would approach this. While no one is playing a cleric, and I haven't looked at how they work, I can assume the same potential problem lies here as well. On a final note, given that there are apparently no 'alignment based classes', its discouraging this information was not provided within the Paladin class description.

Note: My friend still has my players, so if this is handled within the books, please provide me with the reference point in case we've simply missed it.

 

[Jack99]

Early on in the 4th edition process my group heard that there will no longer be alignment restrictions on classes. In the spirit of this, we have a player that has been planning to play an evil or chaotic evil Paladin in what is intended to be a generally evil based campaign for our first time through 4E.

Having just received the books, my friend looked over the Paladin to see that they recommend no gods for use of evil alignment...and in addition, nearly all the powers involve radiant damage.

How would you suggest we proceed?

Ideally his character background would suggest he is a follower of Bane. I'm wondering if it would hurt the game balance too much by simply changing all 'radiance' damage types to 'necrotic'. Or does it seem feasible simply to say, 'Bane has blessed you with the power of 'good' so that you can use your enemies powers against them'.

Just curious how DM's would approach this. While no one is playing a cleric, and I haven't looked at how they work, I can assume the same potential problem lies here as well. On a final note, given that there are apparently no 'alignment based classes', its discouraging this information was not provided within the Paladin class description.

Note: My friend still has my players, so if this is handled within the books, please provide me with the reference point in case we've simply missed it.

This is what the DMG suggests you do.

My recommendation would be not to play evil campaigns, unless of course, you have extensive experience with it, DM and players.

 

[Mort_Q]

DMG, Chapter 9, p. 163, Divine Evil

 

[Family]

For a evil (but not chaotic) paladin watch the movie Serenity and observe the operative of parliament(the bad guy). He pulls it off with style.

Chaos on a team on the other hand...that's tough, V in V for Vendetta was chaotic (but not evil in the movie) and he worked either alone or as THE BOSS. Plus he was more of a rogue. So I got nothing.

 

[FourthBear]

I think the bits in the PH are indeed intended to discourage evil PCs in general, but if everyone at the table is fine with having an evil PC, I would just ignore it.

Now, about the powers for the paladin and cleric being based so much on radiant damage, I would say this has less to do with the alignment of the character and more on how the character will be interacting with the undead and fiendish creatures. The undead tend to have various vulnerabilities to radiant damage and resistance to necrotic damage. There's a suggestion in the DMG about NPC evil clerics and paladins, where you simply switch all radiant damage in powers to necrotic. But that would mean your evil PC paladin/cleric would be less effective against the undead. I think there are a few cases where using necrotic damage is a benefit, but not too many.

If you think the evil faith that the PC will be following will be opposed to the undead, then I would keep the radiant powers and simply change the special effects. Instead of creating golden light, you create sinister, blood red radiance. A more important issue might the number of powers that heal others in the cleric/paladin list, if that's not what the PC would be envisioned doing. That's harder to deal with, since it's a bit part of the cleric's designed role.

 

[VannATLC]

Bane is going to be Radiant damage, IMO.

Note that there is nothing that indicates Radiant is good. Its simply divine/astral in nature.

If you are going with Vecna or Orcus, though, Necrotic would be well within flavour.

 

[babinro]

Thanks for the tips...it makes sense that radiance doesn't necessarily equal good but rather divine. On the other hand, it's also a 'variant' rule in the DMG that you can change damage types as I've been told pg 163. Evil Divinity. So all told, I'll just give the option to my player and let them run what they feel is more suitable.

 

[Kichwas]

I'm actually fond of the idea of using Radiant damage... but then in WoW my main toon is a blood elf paladin - they get the power of good because (up until the newest patch at least) they had enslaved one of the good demi-gods and were sucking out its soul...

Now that just has 'win' written all over it.

Why have your own power source when you can steal the other guy's and use it against him?

Also keep in mind there's a lot more to the dynamics of evil toons and evil characters than the DnD books give credit. Villains in fiction are often the more interesting characters because they get, 1: the better actors, 2: better dialogue, and 3: better and more complex motives.

From the 60s Batman TV show, to assorted Roman emporers, to Cortez, the Inquisition, Darth Vadar, Saurumon (sp?), Prince John, (and at the risk of Godwining the thread) those brown shirted guys in WWII, and so on...

You can play evil toons and have very dynamic plots, you can even make them think they are doing it for the greater good / nationalism / patriotism / domestic security / pushing back barbarism, and so on...

Paladins make perfect villains. If we removed alignments from DnD, they would be the first PC options to fall prey to claims that all of them were evil, even the ones claiming to worship good deities. Look at what they do - run out and kill people not devoted to their gods. That's rarely a good thing. It's only the quirks of the DnD alignment system that let us pretend they're heroes.

I plan on playing all my paladins as religious zealots with no heart for infidels, even the ones who follow Pelor and his like.

 

[Holy Bovine]

I plan on playing all my paladins as religious zealots with no heart for infidels, even the ones who follow Pelor and his like.

What do you mean 'planning to'? I always felt paladins were played like that everywhere.

For the OP I would just leave the power as radiant explaining it as divine and not good energy.