D&D General Player-generated fiction in D&D

pemerton

Legend
The 4e D&D rulebooks have quite a bit of advocacy for the players making decisions about the shared fiction: backstory, the focus of the action, what is possible here-and-now in terms of action declaration.

Some examples around the focus of the action:

PHB p 258: "You can also, with your DM’s approval, create a quest for your character. Such a quest can tie into your character’s background. For instance, perhaps your mother is the person whose remains lie in the Fortress of the Iron Ring. Quests can also relate to individual goals, such as a ranger searching for a magic bow to wield. Individual quests give you a stake in a campaign’s unfolding story and give your DM ingredients to help develop that story."

DMG p 103: "You should allow and even encourage players to come up with their own quests that are tied to their individual goals or specific circumstances in the adventure. Evaluate the proposed quest and assign it a level. Remember to say yes as often as possible!"​

Some examples around what is possible in action declaration:

DMG p 42: "Your presence as the Dungeon Master is what makes D&D such a great game. You make it possible for the players to try anything they can imagine. That means it’s your job to resolve unusual actions when the players try them. . . . [rules and guidelines follow, and then an example action declaration] . . . This sort of action is exactly the kind of thinking you want to encourage . . ."

DMG pp 73-5: "When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it. . . . players can and will come up with ways to use skills you do not expect. . . . Characters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total. . . . Thinking players are engaged players. In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no."​

Some examples around backstory:

DMG2 p 12: "A sense of shared authorship between you and the players can begin before you start playing, when you create the campaign. . . . Have each player bring a pitch, a basic idea for the campaign . . . The pitch is a simple sentence that describes how the player characters fit into their world."

DMG2 p 15: "You might also ask players to invent one or two NPCs to whom they have important ties. These can be ties of loyalty . . . Alternatively, these NPCs might despise the character, and you can use the NPCs as obstacles to the character's goals."

DMG2 pp 16-17: "The process of shared creation doesn't need to stop during your campaign's prep phase. You can continue it by allowing players a role in inventing your D&D world. . . . When you are presented with player input into your world, start by repeating to yourself the first rule of improvisation: Never negate. . . . Three main techniques allow you to bring player suggestions to the fore: incidental reference solicited input, and the turnaround. Proactive players might employ a fourth method, the direct assertion."​

When I used to GM Rolemaster and AD&D, players would contribute around backstory, and the focus of the action, but not so much in terms of what is possible in action declaration. Those systems don't support that sort of player contribution like 4e D&D does!

Who else's D&D has a high volume of player-generated fiction?
 

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pemerton

Legend
What are talking about?
From the OP,

The 4e D&D rulebooks have quite a bit of advocacy for the players making decisions about the shared fiction: backstory, the focus of the action, what is possible here-and-now in terms of action declaration. . . .

When I used to GM Rolemaster and AD&D, players would contribute around backstory, and the focus of the action, but not so much in terms of what is possible in action declaration. Those systems don't support that sort of player contribution like 4e D&D does!​

If you're asking why AD&D and RM don't support player contribution around what is possible in action declaration, here's why:

AD&D: no systematic resolution framework, and special abilities that are normally spelled out in detailed and often rather niche terms.

RM: very strong simulationist sensibilities, that mean that skills are non-magical (and so subject to "mundane" limits) and that spells do what they say on the tin and no more.​

I’ve gotten quite a few stories/hints/quests from my players and their backgrounds in D&D since the 80’s.
Cool. This thread is the place to say more about that!
 

Oofta

Legend
Supporter
In games I play the player is responsible for their PC, the DM is responsible for the world and the creatures that populate it. The player may propose a lot of things concerning their background and what their doing in downtime, but the DM has editorial control.

It's the style of game I personally prefer whether I'm a player or a DM. I've looked into and played some one-shots here and there of more narrative games and it's just not for me. If I'm playing I want to be surprised by what's going on around me, I want to discover what's going on and why. I don't want to pencil in details of the murderer in a murder mystery.

That doesn't mean I can't be creative in the different roles, it just means that my creativity has a different shape and direction. If I want an interesting background for my PC (not all players do), I can work with my DM and together we'll figure out a story that works for both of us.

Meanwhile my players absolutely have a voice in the style of campaign that I run, influence on direction of the campaign and overall themes and goals of the party. But they do that either off-line by discussing goals and desires or, more often, by what their players say and do. D&D is a team game so not only is the player working within some parameters set by the game system and DM, they are also working with the rest of the team.

So it's not either or. It's not either end of the spectrum from "Players are just along for the ride" to "Players decide the fiction of the world". It's "Players work with the DM to create personal lore for their PC and then interact with and influence the world through their PC." Along with "Players discuss campaign and direction of the game outside of actual play."
 


Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
The 4e D&D rulebooks might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total. . . . Thinking players are engaged players. In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no."

[...]

When I used to GM Rolemaster and AD&D, players would contribute around backstory, and the focus of the action, but not so much in terms of what is possible in action declaration. Those systems don't support that sort of player contribution like 4e D&D does!

Who else's D&D has a high volume of player-generated fiction?
I don't personally consider D&D (except for 4e) a game that supports a high volume of player-generated fiction. In fact, I have very little (in any) in my AD&D and 5e games. On the contrary, I had a moderate amount of it in 4e, which however I haven't played in a while.
 

pemerton

Legend
I don't personally consider D&D (except for 4e) a game that supports a high volume of player-generated fiction. In fact, I have very little (in any) in my AD&D and 5e games.
Can you say anything about why?

I've given my answer to that for possible action declarations - but I'm curious about backstory and the focus of the action.
 


payn

I don't believe in the no-win scenario
I really liked the traits and campaign players guide features of Paizo Adventure paths in PF1. I was hoping to get more player generated fiction going, but they preferred a more trad experience. Probably a comfort thing for most folks when it comes to D&D. I've had plenty of backstory and player driven adventure ideas, but nobody has ever tried to invent the "Fortress of the Iron Ring," on their own as a player.

Closest I get to this is my Traveller games, and even those tend to cleave closely to trad style gaming.
 

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