D&D 5E PHB Roguish Archetypes

[Li Shenron]

Our Rogue has just reached 3rd level, and is very undecided on which archetype to choose... want to help?

Some details about the Rogue character:

- takes care of most group's exploration tasks, but is perhaps more interested in combat (mixed melee/ranged)
- human with fairly high Dex/Con/Int, rest is average
- has the Charlatan background (knows Disguise and Forgery kits, but hasn't actually used them ever)
- expertise in Stealth and Investigation, proficiency in Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Perception and Deception

And about the rest of the party and the campaign:

- Cleric of Life, focused on healing and melee combat
- Moon Druid, focused on combat wildshape and out-of-combat spellcasting
- Fighter (archetype to be decided), focused on melee combat
- currently playing the old Horror on the Hill module, minimal social interaction otherwise plenty of exploration and lots of combats
- most of the times we run combats in TotM mode; unfortunately this means that the Rogue hasn't learned to take advantage of the Cunning Action ability
- the whole campaign is a family game with kids 7-11yo

Story-wise the player is very open, so all archetypes are fine. We only have the core books however, so it has to become either Thief, Assassin or Arcane Trickster.

Since our players are at their first 5e campaign, I first suggested the Thief archetype, being it the most "normal" from a narrative point of view. However, it looks very underwhelming to the point that I am not sure its abilities will ever come up! Fast Hands is for combat use, but how often do you actually expect to pickpocket someone or disarm a trap or pick a lock during combat? Second-Story Work bonus to climb speed also is only relevant in combat, but uncommon (especially in TotM, we don't keep track of precise distances). They sound like they require an extremely creative player to put into good use. Even Supreme Sneak while certainly it will be used all the time, it still doesn't feel special. Beyond those, other benefits are too far away in the future (Thief's Reflexes looks awesome, but we'll never get there).

The Assassin archetype may have some moral issues, but perhaps I can narrate the concept in a way that removes the evil shades. The bonus proficiencies are worthless for this character, but the Assassinate bonuses in the first round are definitely going to be very useful. Then it's probably the end of it, considering that Infiltration Expertise is similar to the Charlatan's feature that has also been unused so far.

The Arcane Trickster can actually be the best addition to the group, considering that we have no Wizard-types. Even if it's just a few spells, they will certainly become handy both in and out of combat. The downside is that the complexity of the character is increased significantly.

So in a summary:

- Thief: (+) most classic character, (+) encourage creativity but (-) if you don't keep up with that, the abilities are useless
- Assassin: (+) easy and powerful boost in combat at level 3, then (-) basically that's it, and (-) requires some narrative care to eliminate the evil bent
- Arcane Trickster: (+) best all-around addition to the party, (-) more difficult to play and resource-manage

What would you suggest?

 

[jaelis]

ATs are a lot of fun, and you don't have so many spells to make it really complicated. Also works well with a good Int score.

 

[DEFCON 1]

As you say, Thief probably is the most classic and easiest to get into, but you are right that picking pockets, disarming traps, and using objects don't often come up during combat. Unless you as the DM go about making sure there are things to fiddle with in the environment for the Thief to use Fast Hands for. Which adds more work for you, but does make the environments more enticing to fight in. But if you are doing TotM, you can tell the Thief player that they can use their Bonus to just "create opportunities" for themselves, and that their imagination can go wild with it. So things like throwing dirt in the eyes of the enemies to blind them, knocking over rocks to trip them, grabbing and twisting their arms to disarm them of their weapons etc.

Basically, you end up getting with the Rogue Thief the exact same mechanical effects you'd get from the Arcane Trickster or the Battle Master... only the "fluff" of them and how the effects look is different. But it does involve a lot of creativity on their part and a lot of quick decision making on the results on your part. So in that regard, Arcane Trickster might end up being "easier" because at least then the Rogue has a concrete list of like 3 or 4 mechanic effects they can do a certain number of times and you have the mechanics spelled out for you.

But if you have a player that has the imagination to just think up weird and wacky stuff to do... having a Thief (and this the excuse to let them use their Bonus action to do them in addition to a regular attack) can be a lot of fun and creative for that player.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Thief is my favorite archetype. Use your Fast Hand to throw caltrops/ballbearing or alchemical fire and acid vials. You can also use a Healer's Kit as a bonus action which is really powerful in terms of healing. If you use theater of the mind, the extra climb speed needs to be seen as a narrative boost. You know the places where the average character needs a rope or ladder to event attempt climbing? Well the thief can make the climb even without material, think Assassins Creed. When someone plays a rogue at my table, I always remind them to think in 3D: they need to remind me to describe how high is the ceilings, if there's any balcony or curtain they can climb to etc. It makes for a very dynamic rogue.

Assassins are really cool, but if used only for the combat skills, they'll feel like an empty archetype. The most interesting features are the infiltration ones, but they are so campaign dependent. Its one of the archetype that benefits the most from long downtime periods.

Arcane trickster sounds cool on paper but also feels like you did not choose an archetype after a time. All your features boost your mage hand but, after a time, pickpocketing or disabling traps from a distance gets repetitive as a features. The spells can be good utility, but I would a preferred to have transmutation as a spell school to have access to spells that complement my thieving activities: Message, Jump, Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat, Knock, Darkvision, Levitate, Longstrider, Alter Self, Spider Climb, Rope Trick, Pyrotechnics, Gaseous Form, Fabricate, Animate Objects, Passwalls etc. The most interesting features, IMO, is the spell pilfering, but comes really late and, while flavorful, isnt quite what it was in previous editions.

 

[77IM]

Arcane Trickster: The shield spell alone is worth the price of entry.

The best low-level AT spells also tend to be fairly straightforward (shield, sleep, charm person, invisibility). Eventually you'll get into phantasmal force which is incredibly potent but also complicated, but by that time, your player should have gotten the hang of it. AT also has a lot of spells that really compliment the Charlatan angle (such as charm person and suggestion) so it fits well with the character concept, even if the player doesn't actually pick very many of those spells because the campaign is light on social interaction.

 

[Li Shenron]

So things like throwing dirt in the eyes of the enemies to blind them, knocking over rocks to trip them, grabbing and twisting their arms to disarm them of their weapons etc.

Yeah those would be good, but probably beyond what is intended for the Fast Hands ability, since they are almost like a (limited) extra attack.

 

[Li Shenron]

The spells can be good utility, but I would a preferred to have transmutation as a spell school to have access to spells that complement my thieving activities: Message, Jump, Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat, Knock, Darkvision, Levitate, Longstrider, Alter Self, Spider Climb, Rope Trick, Pyrotechnics, Gaseous Form, Fabricate, Animate Objects, Passwalls etc. The most interesting features, IMO, is the spell pilfering, but comes really late and, while flavorful, isnt quite what it was in previous editions.

There's very limited room for them (3-4 IIRC), but if they are up to 4th level, the AT can learn spells from other schools.

 

[5ekyu]

given the parameters you describe, i think At is the way i would go in your circumstance.

However, i think instead of focusing as much on what is going on in the campaign right now, you should focus instead on what you want your character to do. Remember, the PCs are not just passive reactors to what is going on, so as the game progresses you *can* choose to be more directive in the course of the game and what happens and in that vein alter the situations you encounter. So, you can get into more cases where the THIEF abilities or the Assassin abilities matter more and more often. keep the whole party in mind of course, a lot of solo one-off type activities might shut them out and so not be as desirable, but you have a lot of options.

Trickster simply put "opens new doors" (figuratively speaking - though maybe literally) in that the opening up of spell options creates new things you can do as you go along. In my mind that kind of thing is often more important than making what you already do better.

Thief and Assassin really make "what you already do" better. i would myself put THIEF above Assassin unless it was an almost all combat campaign. The bonus actions it adds have a lot of potential uses in a lot of situations.

Without a true wizard or strong arcane presence, i would say Trickster seems like a very strong choice for many reasons.

Also, just an aside, i know a lot of the white room builds look ahead to 20s... i usually at low levels only look through 11th mostly with a little nod to 15th. that is because you have very little idea what the needs will be and what the challenges will be once you hit those levels - *if* you hit those levels (many game stop by 15th.) You can only be sure the challenges wont be the same ones you face at 3-4 or even 5-10.

 

[77IM]

Also, does this player's selection of Charlatan background indicate that they want to see more social interaction? I don't know anything about Horror on the Hill, but when I DM, I usually find ways to toss in some talky parts most sessions. (Monsters are people too!) If social interaction becomes relevant, Assassin is a wonderfully fun archetype. Disguise + concealed weapons + surprise knife in the neck = really fun alpha strike!

EDIT: + poison!

 

[aco175]

All 3 of my thieves went basic Thief. Assassin never looked right to the good guy hero I tend to play and Trickster was going to be the last rogue's type but when I looked at the limited spells it did not make the cut. I guess depending on how you are playing the character it could make it better. I found myself wanting to go multiclassed more than trickster. Not that the basic Thief powers are great as others have said, but it won out compared to the other two.