[PHB II]Sorcerer Metamagic Specialist - Too Much?

[Psion]

As some may know by now, the sorcerer variant in PHBII is the metamagic specialist. Long story short, a limited number of times per day, you can ignore the time restriction on metamagic (in exchange for giving up the familiar). Yes, sorcerers can actually quicken spells with this...

This seems a little scary to me. And yet, I have often felt the sorcerer is a bit weak. Is this variant enough to bring them into their own?

Anyone had any play time with this one yet?

 

[bpkri]

Hmm, I might agree on the Sorcerer being a bit weak or boring, because it is very hard for him to reach PrCs and this become really different. (It's not impossible, but very difficult and you often have to sacrifice variability and even usefullness for the group to reach the goal).

Mostly a Sorcerer only goes up in levels. You pick up spells. You pick what few skills you have and every now and then you can actually gain a feat. But that's it.

I'd think twice about giving up the familiar. Ofcourse being able to cast metamagic even better would be a great improvement though IMHO it adresses the wrong problem. And it can be damn powerful. So you might get a very pwoerful character (maybe! unbalancingly powerful) who still can't properly evolve into something else.

I don't know if anyone here knows the Warhammer Fantasy RP, but I am slowly beginning to see the advantages of their career-system...

 

[SidusLupus]

When I looked over this it seemed too good.

Why wouldnt every sorc in the world give up a familiar to get use metamagic feats on the fly without increasing the casting time? However, if it's limited per day uses then it might not be so horrible.

If there is a limiter can you post what it is please?

 

[MarkB]

When I looked over this it seemed too good.

Why wouldnt every sorc in the world give up a familiar to get use metamagic feats on the fly without increasing the casting time? However, if it's limited per day uses then it might not be so horrible.

If there is a limiter can you post what it is please?

3 + INT modifier. So another effect of this option is to give sorcerers a bit of Multiple Attribute Dependency.

 

[Thanee]

This seems a little scary to me.

While I havn't tried it yet, I know of others who used something like this (most importantly the spontaneous usability of Quicken Spell) *as a standard (house) rule* without any cost or limit attached, and had no problems (tho, I would suspect that this is a bit much, really).

The big thing is only Quicken Spell and the ability to use it spontaneously, the rest is just being able to move and cast, something all other casters can do already.

To compare with existing stuff... is this much better than Arcane Preparation (cost is about the same... one feat (using Obtain Familiar as a point of comparison))? I don't think it is much of a difference. The spontaneous use is good, but the daily limit puts a damper on this ability, so you cannot overuse it and will have to decide in every situation, whether it is now a good time to use it, much like with the few prepared spells you have prepared with Arcane Preparation; most often you know what spells you want to use with what metamagic, anyways. Having a few slots prepared beforehand is not such a big deal for a sorcerer. It's probably slightly better, but not that much.

And then there are the psionic users, which also can apply their metamagic equivalent spontaneous with no daily limit (but the Psionic Focus limitation instead). Might very well be one reason why we now have this ability.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kerrick]

While I havn't tried it yet, I know of others who used something like this (most importantly the spontaneous usability of Quicken Spell) *as a standard (house) rule* without any cost or limit attached, and had no problems (tho, I would suspect that this is a bit much, really).

Our group does... sorcerers suffer no increased casting time for metamagic. Course, we also play a high-power, high-magic campaign... But, this doesn't make sorcerers significantly stronger.

Why wouldnt every sorc in the world give up a familiar to get use metamagic feats on the fly without increasing the casting time?

Hmm... because otherwise they'd still suck? I mean seriously... familiars are pretty well useless, and getting to cast even a few metamagicked spells per day is a big deal. I don't think it's too much.

 

[KarinsDad]

The time for a Sorcerer to cast a metamagic spell is not a one round spell. It is a full round action. In other words, he uses up a full round action to cast the metamagic spell and it goes off immediately. He can even 5' step with it.


PHB II also had a statement in it on how to run Sorcerers that implied that they suck at metamagic cause it takes too long to cast. This implies that the author thought that Sorcerer metamagic spells are like Summon Monster spells in that they take a one round spell.


Casting metamagic on the fly is VERY powerful and all you give up for it is a move action. To me, this makes core rule Sorcerers much stronger than core rule Wizards. Sorcerers are only wimpier than Wizards (IMO) if they do not take a lot of metamagic feats.

So, maybe the authors thought that Sorcerers were giving up a semi-useful Familiar in order to gain non-one round casting metamagic.

But in reality, they are giving up the familiar to gain a move action on rounds they metamagic cast. This is not typically that big of a deal.


I do think that allowing Sorcerers to Quicken on the fly is too powerful and I do not think this varient Sorcerer actually gains this (unless the text explicitly states that he does).

Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

Regardless of whether the Variant Sorcerer could cast metamagic on the fly as a standard action, the casting time can be considered irrelevant. The casting is still spontaneous, hence, Quicken Spell cannot be applied to the spell. Granted, the reason for this restriction is also listed here, but it does not state that if the reason no longer applies for spontaneous spells, then the restriction no longer applies. A given DM could rule that way though.


A Sorcerer (variant or normal) could prepare a Quicken spell ahead of time if he took both the Arcane Preparation and the Quicken Spell feat, but that still limits the Quicken to a number of times per day and the actual spells for which he prepared them. He could not do this on the fly.

 

[Caliban]

I do think that allowing Sorcerers to Quicken on the fly is too powerful and I do not think this varient Sorcerer actually gains this (unless the text explicitly states that he does).

The text explicitly states that Quickened spells are possible with this variant.

 

[KarinsDad]

The text explicitly states that Quickened spells are possible with this variant.

In that case, I consider the variant class too potent.

Spontaneous Quicken means two spells per round on probably about a half dozen or more rounds at high and epic levels (if someone took the variant class, they would probably make sure they at least had a +6 Headband of Intellect at high levels).

Other spell casters can rarely do this since they are limited to Prepared Quickened spells. And, other spell casters could not spontaneously change which spell they have Quickened. The Alternate Sorcerer would only be limited by the number of 5th and higher level spell slots and the number per day he could do this for.

This is why Arcane Preparation is not too potent. It takes up a feat (the variant class does not, it gives up the Familiar, big deal) and it still limits Quicken spells to prepared spells (both in number and in which spell is prepared as Quickened).


The high level Sorcerer could save his 6 or so standard action metamagic castings for when he really needs them and he could still cast two spontaneous metamagicked spells in a single round up to 6+ times per day (the full round casting of the second spell is not a big deal).

Additionally, he could take Arcane Preparation and cast even more Metamagicked Quickened spells per day. Granted, a normal Sorcerer (or spell caster) could do this as well, but the Variant Sorcerer has the flexibility to only prepare Metamagicked Quickened spells he knows he will need and then can still spontaneously cast others.

Throw some Incantrix levels into the mix and he has a boatload of metamagic feats to choose from.


The variant class is fine trading the familiar for the move action a limited number of times per day.

But, no class should get Spontaneous Quickened Metamagic casting. IMO. It's game breaking for similar reasons as to why Haste was game breaking in 3E. If someone wants to Spontaneously cast two metamagic spells in a single round, they should get themself a Sorcerer or Favored Soul cohort that the DM can blow up.

 

[Derren]

You know that there is Accelerate Metamagic which removes the 1 full action limitation of the metamagic feat you choose (of course quicken).
Ok, its dragonblood only but have you seen how good spellscales are for sorcerers anway? With that in mind (and the existence of quicken metamagic rods), no the sorcerer variant is not too strong. Even if the full round limitation gets removed complelty the sorcerer would still be fine thanks to his slower spell level advancment.