D&D 5E Phantasmal Killer

[trentonjoe]

You tap into the nightmares of a creature you can see
within range and create an illusory manifestation of its
deepest fears, visible only to that creature. The target
must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save,
the target becomes frightened for the duration. At the
start of each o f the target’s turns before the spell ends,
the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw
or take 4d10 psychic damage. On a successful save,
the spell ends.

It's two independent save mechanics, right?

Save 1: Frightened or not
Save 2: Take Damage on the start of your turn

The last line confuses me though. If the target makes the very first save to avoid being frightened does it never need to make the save for damage. If it fails the first save (and is frightened) when it finally makes the wisdom save to avoid damage does the frightened effect end as well?

 

[jadrax]

I read it as the target must fail the initial wisdom save or nothing happens and that success on any of the secondary wisdom saves ends the Frightened condition.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I read it as the target must fail the initial wisdom save or nothing happens and that success on any of the secondary wisdom saves ends the Frightened condition.

In which case the spell is pretty bad. They get 2 saves to avoid any real effect? I think its supposed to be one save to determine if they are frightened. Regardless of the outcome, they still make a save at the start of their turn to avoid the 4d10. If they pass that, and were frightened, both effects end.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

In which case the spell is pretty bad. They get 2 saves to avoid any real effect? I think its supposed to be one save to determine if they are frightened. Regardless of the outcome, they still make a save at the start of their turn to avoid the 4d10. If they pass that, and were frightened, both effects end.

That is exactly why the PHB errata (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf) says:

Phantasmal Killer (p. 265). The frightened target makes a save at the end of its turns, not the start.

They never meant to require two saves before first damage. Each failure = 4d10 damage is the intent, so they changed it in the errata and the next PHB printing.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Thanks, that does make it better!

 

[emeraldury]

I am sorry but i don't understand your interpretation Hemlock.

I now read the Spell as:
Cast the Spell: Save for Frightened.
Failure: Target acts but is Frightened.
At the end of target's turn: Save for Damage.

Meaning now the Spell is even weaker, because the target might have died to the damage at the start of it's turn in the non-errated version. And now the spell states, that the target is frightened, meaning it only has to save if the first save failed, which was not the case in the non-errated version.

Nothing in the spell description or the errata states, that the target receives damage at the time of casting, the damage only might trigger at the end of the target's turns.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I am sorry but i don't understand your interpretation Hemlock.

I now read the Spell as:
Cast the Spell: Save for Frightened.
Failure: Target acts but is Frightened.
At the end of target's turn: Save for Damage.

Meaning now the Spell is even weaker, because the target might have died to the damage at the start of it's turn in the non-errated version. And now the spell states, that the target is frightened, meaning it only has to save if the first save failed, which was not the case in the non-errated version.

Nothing in the spell description or the errata states, that the target receives damage at the time of casting, the damage only might trigger at the end of the target's turns.

It's not weaker. Even if the target successfully makes the second save, they still spend a turn frightened. As in: Cannot move closer to the caster and takes disadvantage on all attack rolls as long as they're within line of sight of the caster. Previously if they had made the second save, they would have suffered no appreciable ill effects (except for disadvantage on any attacks of opportunity made after failing the initial save but before the beginning of their next turn).

 

[Mouseferatu]

Honestly, I'm disappointed with phantasmal killer in 5E. It used to be one of my favorite spells. Now, I get that we've moved away from save-or-die, but you only died if you failed both saves. Now, I'm not even sure it's worth a 4th-level slot.

What I think would make a solid difference is if the target took damage at the start of its turn, but saved to end the spell at the end. That way, if the first save is failed, you're guaranteed at least one round's worth of fear and damage. Given that it's a 4th-level spell that is totally negated if the first save is successful, I think it's fair to want the spell's full effect for at least 1 round if that first save fails.

 

[I'm A Banana]

What I think would make a solid difference is if the target took damage at the start of its turn, but saved to end the spell at the end. That way, if the first save is failed, you're guaranteed at least one round's worth of fear and damage. Given that it's a 4th-level spell that is totally negated if the first save is successful, I think it's fair to want the spell's full effect for at least 1 round if that first save fails.

That's basically what the errata does!

1: you cast the spell
2: Target makes a save.
3a: IF target saves, no effect.
3b: IF target fails, they are frightened and take 4d10 damage and then make another save to see if they take more damage.

Frightened is nothing to sneer at, either. On an INT save, that'll reduce the BBEG's thick-necked four-armed troll to Captain Whiffs-A-Lot pretty reliably.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Where do you get the initial 4d10 damage? I didn't see anything in the errata about the damage occurring at any time other than if the end-of-turn saves are missed.