Pathfinder 1E PF Rules Question: Clay golem's cursed wound ability, supernatural healing, and remove curse

[blargney the second]

We ended our game on Monday night just after an encounter with a nasty spellcasting clay golem. A couple of PCs had taken hefty damage from its slam attacks, and we were trying to figure out how to resolve healing their wounds. Clay golems in Pathfinder have an ability called Cursed Wounds (Ex): The damage a clay golem deals doesn't heal naturally and resists magical healing. A character attempting to use magical healing on a creature damaged by a clay golem must succeed on a DC 26 caster level check, or the healing has no effect on the injured creature. This is changed from 3.5, where it used to specify 'conjuration (healing)' instead of magical healing.

The first problem that we have is that 'magical healing' is not actually a keyword that designates something specific in rule terms. This interacts ambiguously with better defined areas of the ruleset, which I'll get to in a moment. The second problem is identifying what damage effects this ability applies to, and the third problem is determining when the cursed wound power ends.

Low-hanging fruit: Spells and spell-like abilities have to make the caster level check. That's fairly apparent, I think. We're also not worried about extraordinary healing.

Questions:
1) Does supernatural (Su) healing (such as lay on hands or channel energy) automatically work, auto-fail, or does it have to make a caster level check (using what modifier)?
The DC 26 caster level check sounds suspiciously like SR, which Su abilities bypass (makes me think auto-success). On the other hand, Su abilities don't have a caster level in PF unless the given effect specifies one (LoH and CE do not specify one). This is a change from 3.5, where the CL was defined for Su abilities. If Su abilities don't have a caster level, that sounds like auto-fail territory. I guess a related (possibly underlying) question would be: Does Su healing count as magical healing?

2) If afflicted PCs now take damage from anything else (not clay golems) before the curse goes away, does the preexisting cursed wounds effect apply to the new damage?
It can be interpreted to apply only to the damage the golem dealt itself, but it's vague enough to be interpreted as applying to any other damage the character receives.

3) If a spellcasting golem damages us with a spell, would that damage be a cursed wound? What if they do ability damage?

4) Is it possible to remove the cursed wound effect once it's in place?
It doesn't say anything about going away once the wounds are healed. Remove curse requires the curse to have a save DC, and there isn't one. Break enchantment requires the curse to have a caster level, and there isn't one. I don't know of any other spell that could get rid of the curse.


Thanks for the help resolving this!
-blarg

 

[Kinak]

I tried to find you some actual rules (no dice), but here's how I ruled it when it came up in my game:
1) Supernatural abilities from classes use the appropriate class level in place of caster level. I honestly just assumed it's intended to partially block channel energy and lay on hands as well.

2) I'd say it affects all wounds. "On a creature damaged by" and "the healing has no effect" point me in that direction.

3) It wouldn't apply to spells, in my opinion. In the statblock, it only applies to slams.

4) I'd allow both remove curse (DC 26) and break enchantment (CL equal to the golem's hit dice) to remove it.

Now, a lot of that borders on houserules, but it's how I've run clay golems. Hope it helps!

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

We ended our game on Monday night just after an encounter with a nasty spellcasting clay golem.

Are you the DM or a player?

RAW won't work here, because the clay golem is not well-designed.

A couple of PCs had taken hefty damage from its slam attacks, and we were trying to figure out how to resolve healing their wounds. Clay golems in Pathfinder have an ability called Cursed Wounds (Ex): The damage a clay golem deals doesn't heal naturally and resists magical healing. A character attempting to use magical healing on a creature damaged by a clay golem must succeed on a DC 26 caster level check, or the healing has no effect on the injured creature. This is changed from 3.5, where it used to specify 'conjuration (healing)' instead of magical healing.

The first problem that we have is that 'magical healing' is not actually a keyword that designates something specific in rule terms. This interacts ambiguously with better defined areas of the ruleset, which I'll get to in a moment. The second problem is identifying what damage effects this ability applies to, and the third problem is determining when the cursed wound power ends.

Low-hanging fruit: Spells and spell-like abilities have to make the caster level check. That's fairly apparent, I think. We're also not worried about extraordinary healing.

Questions:
1) Does supernatural (Su) healing (such as lay on hands or channel energy) automatically work, auto-fail, or does it have to make a caster level check (using what modifier)?

I think it's effectively an opposed caster level check, much like Dispel Magic.

The DC 26 caster level check sounds suspiciously like SR, which Su abilities bypass (makes me think auto-success). On the other hand, Su abilities don't have a caster level in PF unless the given effect specifies one (LoH and CE do not specify one). This is a change from 3.5, where the CL was defined for Su abilities. If Su abilities don't have a caster level, that sounds like auto-fail territory. I guess a related (possibly underlying) question would be: Does Su healing count as magical healing?

Supernatural is magic. Supernatural abilities are specifically hedged out by Antimagic Field. I think for PC supernatural abilities, you should just use their character level.

2) If afflicted PCs now take damage from anything else (not clay golems) before the curse goes away, does the preexisting cursed wounds effect apply to the new damage?
It can be interpreted to apply only to the damage the golem dealt itself, but it's vague enough to be interpreted as applying to any other damage the character receives.

No, it's only applying to the golem's damage.

3) If a spellcasting golem damages us with a spell, would that damage be a cursed wound? What if they do ability damage?

Clay golems don't cast spells, so you shouldn't have faced a casting golem. When adding spells to a golem, the curse ability should have been changed to only take into account slam damage. Same with ability damage; the cursed wound ability would need to be reworded.

4) Is it possible to remove the cursed wound effect once it's in place?
It doesn't say anything about going away once the wounds are healed. Remove curse requires the curse to have a save DC, and there isn't one. Break enchantment requires the curse to have a caster level, and there isn't one. I don't know of any other spell that could get rid of the curse.


Thanks for the help resolving this!
-blarg

For Break Enchantment, the DC should be 26. I think I'd just use the same DC for Remove Curse, but you could pick an ability score to help set the save DC.

 

[billd91]

Cursed Wounds (Ex): The damage a clay golem deals doesn't heal naturally and resists magical healing. A character attempting to use magical healing on a creature damaged by a clay golem must succeed on a DC 26 caster level check, or the healing has no effect on the injured creature. This is changed from 3.5, where it used to specify 'conjuration (healing)' instead of magical healing.

<snip>
Questions:
1) Does supernatural (Su) healing (such as lay on hands or channel energy) automatically work, auto-fail, or does it have to make a caster level check (using what modifier)?
I guess a related (possibly underlying) question would be: Does Su healing count as magical healing?

I would count supernatural power healing as magical healing and require a caster level check to overcome the cursed wound. For creatures that can do this, I'd either calculate their caster level as if they were casting a spell-like ability or use the class level of whatever class provides the supernatural healing. That should be pretty analogous.

2) If afflicted PCs now take damage from anything else (not clay golems) before the curse goes away, does the preexisting cursed wounds effect apply to the new damage?
It can be interpreted to apply only to the damage the golem dealt itself, but it's vague enough to be interpreted as applying to any other damage the character receives.

It's the wounds inflicted by the golem that are cursed, not the wounds the PC had before the golem fight, nor the wounds he receives after the golem fight. Just the wounds he receives from the golem. Notice that the cursed wounds ability says the damage inflicted by the clay golem don't heal naturally - not all wounds the character suffers are cursed.

3) If a spellcasting golem damages us with a spell, would that damage be a cursed wound? What if they do ability damage?

Since golems don't normally cast spells, this is where things have to enter uncharted territory and a GM's ruling. I'd say no, spell damage inflicted by a non-standard golem aren't cursed. I'd limit the cursed wounds ability to the normal golem's attacks.

4) Is it possible to remove the cursed wound effect once it's in place?
It doesn't say anything about going away once the wounds are healed. Remove curse requires the curse to have a save DC, and there isn't one. Break enchantment requires the curse to have a caster level, and there isn't one. I don't know of any other spell that could get rid of the curse.

The ability is called cursed wounds - once those wounds are magically healed, why would we assume the curse persists? No more wounds = no more cursed wounds = no more curse. That is, unless the character is injured by the same or another clay golem. Then he would walk away with a fresh set of cursed wounds.