Perception with other skills

[Rolenet]

In another thread, Garthanos said

I think perception is too broad of skill and having reasons for your perception is even better indeed.

This is intriguing. IRL, perception is clearly not a single "skill". People notice stuff they care about, or know. A car enthusiast will just *hear* a V6 closing in, or *see* a modified exhaust. While the ornithologist will see nothing of that but notice a small, distant bird in the sky.

Despite this, we've mostly lived with the ubiquitous Perception skill.

Some game allow pairing of a Perception ability with various skill. E.g. Ars Magica allows, say, a Animal Handling + Per check. Some differentiate Search vs. Awareness or somesuch.

But what about getting rid of Perception altogether?

 

[Garthanos]

One thought is to use Wisdom with a different base skill (with the environment being the fall back if no other skill is appropriate Nature/Dungeoneering/Streetwise) for perception checks.

 

[Garthanos]

If one just used the other skills it could remove some of the function from Wisdom which is in my opinion a huge reason why Wisdom is a appropriate as secondary or tertiary attribute for the fighter... (ie the class who guards actually has reasons for wisdom).

 

[Randomthoughts]

I wouldn't get rid of Perception but other skills could probably be used in lieu of it. Insight is used for "people Perception" (at least that's how I use it). Perhaps Dungeoneering can be used instead of Perception in underground settings or Nature while in the outdoors. Perception would be used as a catch all.


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[Rolenet]

I agree. My point was precisely: if we start accepting the idea of using other skills (-possibly switching the stat to Wis-), would we still ever use the Perception skill?

In other words: if Perception becomes a kind of "default/fallback" awareness skill, would it be ever required?
Is there such a thing as a generic perception situation?

Yeah, that's quite metaphysical. Phenomenological, to be more precise. Mmm I can't find a pedantic enough smiley to add to this. Black-rimmed glasses will do

 

[Garthanos]

The game still has perception check bonuses in various places in the rules which could work fine even without the "perception skill"

I am comfortable removing the perception skill ... if a class or build ought to get a bonus to perception skill it becomes a bonus to perception checks.

 

[Lanefan]

First off, as this is flagged "All D&D" can I assume this goes beyond a simple 4e question (I believe the original thread was a 4e one)?

If yes, then lots of options open up depending on edition or system.

However, for now I'd say that while there's certainly times and places where other things can take over (as noted in post 4 above) there's still going to be lots of cases where straight perception is a good fallback answer. Do you notice the guard by the dark rainy castle wall? Do you happen to look at the clouds today, and if so does it occur to you those clouds in the south sky have formed into the shape of your deity's holy symbol? Do you notice the pickpocket now; or that your pockets are a bit lighter after passing though town? Etc.

Lanefan

 

[Garthanos]

However, for now I'd say that while there's certainly times and places where other things can take over (as noted in post 4 above) there's still going to be lots of cases where straight perception is a good fallback answer. Do you notice the guard by the dark rainy castle wall? Do you happen to look at the clouds today, and if so does it occur to you those clouds in the south sky have formed into the shape of your deity's holy symbol? Do you notice the pickpocket now; or that your pockets are a bit lighter after passing though town? Etc.

Lanefan

Edition will modify the skills available but maybe not the concept my thinking will be obviously 4e oriented

A couple of those examples I find decidable...

cloud watching seems a dabble of weather activity nature skill picking out the religous significance in a "sign" however WOULD be religion.

Streetwise is the pickpocket context hands down.

Endurance might help for the dark rainy situation (can you focus in the discomfort)

Raw wisdom... is perhaps a fall back but there is also background I am a dwarf with family who do architecture that might warrant a bonus

 

[Lanefan]

Edition will modify the skills available but maybe not the concept my thinking will be obviously 4e oriented

Mine won't be - my 4e knowledge skill is sitting at about -15.

A couple of those examples I find decidable...

cloud watching seems a dabble of weather activity nature skill picking out the religous significance in a "sign" however WOULD be religion.

Streetwise is the pickpocket context hands down.

Endurance might help for the dark rainy situation (can you focus in the discomfort)

Raw wisdom... is perhaps a fall back but there is also background I am a dwarf with family who do architecture that might warrant a bonus

All fair.

Antoher idea is you could fall back on perception but use a different stat as the base modifier - say for the dark rainy situation use Con as the modifier instead of Wis? You're still using perception as the base skill (this makes a difference in that someone might have really jumped up their perception where someone else might not) but letting circumstances decide what stat goes with it this time, with Wisdom as the fallback default.

Lan-"just spitballin'"-efan

 

[Rolenet]

So are you really to take the plunge? No more perception. Aliens invaded our planet and mind-wiped us of all reference to a Perception skill.

Knowledge entails understanding, understanding entails seeing. Join the Unseeing Sect! You will not see the world in a way you've never not seen before!

(There is one issue: if you need someone to roll for the P-word on something they don't know about, asking them to roll e.g. "Nature" means it is nature-related.)