Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e Remastered for the 5e players (+)

[Blue]

So in one game I'm playing in the DM looks to be switching PF2 Remastered for our about-to-start campaign. No one in the group has any PF experience, but are familiar with 5e at the very least. They are also of varying levels of caring about system mastery -- some would want to just create a character with an app using 5e expectations and jump into play.

What's your advice for casual 5e players switching to PF2r? Between everyone we'll have read the rules and try to have those right, but just what mechanically plays a lot different that they should be aware of? Where will going in assuming it's "like 5e" will trip them up in terms of things like character design, party synergy, pitfalls/traps, skill usage, tactics, etc.?

I'm going to try to distill this to 3-4 paragraphs that I can put before even the most casual of them. So feel free to have a main point I can cut and paste, but can have some supporting details just so I can answer questions on what you are saying.

Thanks!

 

[GreyLord]

I haven't played the remastered version, but I have played 2e.

The thing to look out for is that fights can quickly turn out to be more deadly and dangerous than an equivalent fight in 5e. An uncautious DM could quickly cause a TPK to a party that's not prepared for how tough a challenging battle may be in PF terms.

Roll 10 over is also a mechanic that needs to be remembered and works differently than in 5e.

Weapons and your levels with them have a definitive effect on the game and how well you hit and use them. In 5e you either know a weapon or you don't...in PF2e there are different levels of how good you are. This also can apply to skills. Be aware of how this interacts with the game.

They should catch on quickly to the ideas (like the latter one I just mentioned above) as they are pretty easy to grasp, and the way the game is put together makes it easy to understand the ideas, but it's the gotcha's (like the first thing I mentioned) which will get cha.

 

[Velderan]

A few things that have stood out to me in the ~16 months I've been running PF2e after playing 5e for 5 years with the same group:

• The 4 degrees of success, with crits happening if you exceed the target by 10, REALLY means the little +1s here and there matter. It can create a repetitive playstyle for some classes (Bards with Courageous Anthem immediately comes to mind) so that is something to be mindful of when deciding what you want to play.
• The encounter balancing math doesn't lie. I would suggest sticking to moderate encounters until the party gets a feel for the system and decides how tactical they want to be. This isn't particularly hard to do with how you build encounters and if you want a tool to make it easier to make sure you're doing it correctly, PF2easy has one.
• There's plenty of ways to get the rules and game content for free, just be mindful that they don't all update at the same cadence. The Foundry VTT team for example tends to have the new rules up on release day or a couple days after, while the Archives of Nethys has been lagging behind ever since Player Core was released. I believe Player Core 2 is still missing from AoN, so if you're specifically wanting to stick with Remaster rules you'll have to be careful with classes that were updated in Player Core 2 if you're referencing them on AoN.
• There's a lot of books out there and most of them have some character options such as new feats or equipment. This can be confusing to approach if you're not using something like Pathbuilder to make your characters, so I would discuss how much material people want to allow and be mindful about allowing too much if it's going to confuse players with too many options.
• ETA: Runes are important for making sure your PCs are able to match the damage output of appropriate level monsters that you're facing. If you don't like the idea of having to deal with that, there are options to streamline the game's progression with the Automatic Bonus Progression.

That's what immediately comes to mind. I am sure I'll think of more later.

 

[payn]

Gonna back up @GreyLord and @Velderan about GM advice. The CR system is very accurate and the system makes it pretty difficult for PCs to punch above their weight. I'd stick to moderate or lower encounters until the players get their feet under them.

For the players, Id make sure they know PF2 is more tactical in combat. While teamwork in 5E equals better success, at the severe and extreme encounter level in PF2, it is a necessity.

Pathfinder has a reputation for being complex by having a billion feats. However, in PF2 after level one, everything is neatly silo'd into your previous decisions. Meaning at level up you will have a choice between 3-5 feats that are clearly marked. PF1/3E often used prereqs that often had shortcuts and it wasnt nearly clear as PF2 has been made. So, in this case things should be easier than what they often appear by online comments. There are also many online charop tools and Foundry is excellent in this area.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Gonna back up @GreyLord and @Velderan about GM advice. The CR system is very accurate and the system makes it pretty difficult for PCs to punch above their weight. I'd stick to moderate or lower encounters until the players get their feet under them.

I was coming here to say this too. I'm going to overemphasize this a bit for effect, because its important:

The PF2e encounter math is serious.

I suspect strongly this could be a potential landmine for people coming from D&D3e/PF1e and (from what I hear) D&D5e. As it can be easy to do what you're used to and high-balling that and get really bad outcomes, and this may be made worse for the reason Payn mentions below...

For the players, Id make sure they know PF2 is more tactical in combat. While teamwork in 5E equals better success, at the severe and extreme encounter level in PF2, it is a necessity.

Yes. If you have players who are used to just bulling through, you need to be particularly careful, because PF2e does not assume that as an expected behavior. You can still get away with it, but you need to be careful with the encounter builds.

Pathfinder has a reputation for being complex by having a billion feats. However, in PF2 after level one, everything is neatly silo'd into your previous decisions. Meaning at level up you will have a choice between 3-5 feats that are clearly marked. PF1/3E often used prereqs that often had shortcuts and it wasnt nearly clear as PF2 has been made. So, in this case things should be easier than what they often appear by online comments. There are also many online charop tools and Foundry is excellent in this area.

And this is something you need to be aware of if someone starts making random noise about how many feats there are in PF2e, you need to understand it doesn't really mean anything; in effect, a big part of the feat list is really a selection of class features you just get as options. The others are siloed into skill feats and general feats and you only get those ever so often.

 

[Retreater]

Start them on easier encounters.
The Beginner Box does a fair job of introducing things gradually, but you can really lean into this. Plan an encounter where the opponents flank to show the importance of off guard. Or demoralizing. An enemy that has a special weakness that can be learned by a knowledge check.
Have some time for armchair quarterbacking after the encounters to discuss what worked and didn't.
If all else fails, and they want to stay casual with the system, have them play as one level higher than the adventure or encounter suggests, and that goes a way to balance play that isn't great tactically.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Attacking more than twice in a turn isn't a good idea because of the Multi Attack Penalty (MAP). Don't fall into the trap of just repeatedly attacking with low accuracy. When building a PC, try to find "third actions" to take that don't have the Attack trait.

Some good examples are: Raise a Shield, Stepping/Striding away, Demoralize, Aid, casting a 1-action spell (like shield or guidance), feint, or recall knowledge.

 

[Velderan]

Have some time for armchair quarterbacking after the encounters to discuss what worked and didn't.

To add to this, when my group first started playing and probably for the first 4 or 5 sessions I would make it a point as the GM to tell the players when a player succeeded at something (or better yet critically succeeded) because of something the player before them did to set it up. If the player before them used a stride action to end their turn in a position that left the monster off-guard and that -2 to their AC is what caused the next player to hit or crit, absolutely call it out since you're the only one who knows the monster's AC. It definitely helped my players see how often the little things they did right ended up paying off.

 

[Thomas Shey]

To add to this, when my group first started playing and probably for the first 4 or 5 sessions I would make it a point as the GM to tell the players when a player succeeded at something (or better yet critically succeeded) because of something the player before them did to set it up. If the player before them used a stride action to end their turn in a position that left the monster off-guard and that -2 to their AC is what caused the next player to hit or crit, absolutely call it out since you're the only one who knows the monster's AC. It definitely helped my players see how often the little things they did right ended up paying off.

Honestly, it can be a useful thing to be a little transparent with the numbers in general sometimes; its easy when coming from other D20 derived systems to be dismissive of the impact that a single plus or minus one has given the way criticals and fumbles work in PF2e; my own feeling is a +1 in PF2e is, in practice, at least as impactful as a +2 in most similar systems (though there's some situational variance there).

 

[Blue]

Folks, I'm not running this. And when I asked the GM about things that I gathered from other threads here, he wasn't open to "a big infodump". So yeah, GM advice doesn't hurt, and may be useful for others reading this thread, but I'd really like to focus on advice for casual players familiar with 5e switching to PF2 remastered.

Which you have been delivering! Good, concise, actionable things I can give them. Thanks so much, and keep it up.