Pass without Trace vs. Scent

[Quasqueton]

Game situation:

A green hag is harrassing the party with hit and run tactics using her strength drain and invisibility powers. She also was under the effect of her pass without trace ability.

Pass without Trace: "The subject can move through any type of terrain and leave neither footprints nor scent. Tracking the subject is impossible by nonmagical means."

The sorcerer in the party has a viper familiar, with the scent ability.

My first problem was that I didn't know the viper had the scent ability. The second problem was that I didn't realize scent had a range of 30 feet.

I ruled that the snake couldn't pick up the scent of the hag even when within 30' because of the pass without trace "mask". The player disagreed with that and thought the hag should still be detectable as present (within 30').

During a break in the game last night, I looked over all the powers and decided to rule as the player was arguing. I ruled that the pass without trace ability meant no track or scent was "left behind", but the hag still had a scent that could be detect while she was present.

But I'm not 100% sure about either ruling. What would you say?

Quasqueton

 

[Winternight]

I ruled that the pass without trace ability meant no track or scent was "left behind", but the hag still had a scent that could be detect while she was present.

I'd rule the same.
But even if the viper knows in wich hex the hag is the sorcerer, she has still full concealment aggainst the sorcerer and thus a 50% miss chance.
No magic missle either.
She also may move invisible.
Viper: "there she is".
Sorc: "there she is" ( could be a move eq. action by a mean DM)
Sorc: Burning hands.
Hag moves
Fighter: "arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" slash
empty hex. ( still let roll 50%)


BTW:

Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The master cannot
see through the familiar’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Because of the limited nature of the link, only
general emotional content can be communicated.

No way to say "she is in this hex".
only "danger".
hex= sqaures, we use hex map @home

 

[FrankTrollman]

Pass Without Trace vs. Scent.

Pass Without Trace Wins. Fatality.

With extraordinary Spot rolls you can defeat Invisibility. But Scent doesn't have an associated roll - it simply works or doesn't work. Against an opponent with Pass Without Trace it defaults to not working - which means that since there is no roll involved it simply never ever works.

This is one of the oddities of having no "Smell" perception skill - as soon as something gets too hard to normally do, it becomes actually impossible.

-Frank

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I agree with Winternight.

The purpose of Pass Without Trace is to prevent tracking. The ability to Scent an enemy within 30' in no way clashes with the stated advantages of PWT.

In general, Scent only gives the presence or non-presence of an enemy unless the opponent is within 5'. The advantage of PWT in this situation is that most creatures with Scent could track down the exact square of their opponent with a DC 5 or 10 Survival check (whether they they have the Track Feat or not). PWT does prevent that tactic. Not a big deal against a viper, but a wolf animal companion would normally be able to flush out that Hag with ease.

 

[Metallian]

Pass Without Trace vs. Scent.

Pass Without Trace Wins. Fatality.

With extraordinary Spot rolls you can defeat Invisibility. But Scent doesn't have an associated roll - it simply works or doesn't work. Against an opponent with Pass Without Trace it defaults to not working - which means that since there is no roll involved it simply never ever works.

This is one of the oddities of having no "Smell" perception skill - as soon as something gets too hard to normally do, it becomes actually impossible.

That's what I ruled, if only because there is no other spell that could be interpreted as providing the equivalent of "Invisibility vs. Scent," so if PWT doesn't work that way, parties with access to scent will be able to detect nearly everybody within 30 feet all the time. The party for which I DM gets a lot of use out of Scent, so I didn't feel bad letting the occasional NPC with "Pass Without Trace" be undetectable via Scent. They detect almost everyone who ever tries to sneak up on them.

The Metallian

 

[dedstuff]

That's what I ruled, if only because there is no other spell that could be interpreted as providing the equivalent of "Invisibility vs. Scent," so if PWT doesn't work that way, parties with access to scent will be able to detect nearly everybody within 30 feet all the time. The party for which I DM gets a lot of use out of Scent, so I didn't feel bad letting the occasional NPC with "Pass Without Trace" be undetectable via Scent. They detect almost everyone who ever tries to sneak up on them.

The Metallian

So in essence this makes the creature have no scent. What then happens if the creature is walking across a field of snow? Do the footprints never appear or do they appear then disappear? If you treat PWT as removing the cause then the creature has no scent and the footprints never appear. If you treat it as removing the effect then the scent and footprints are there as long as the creature is, but they disappear when the creature moves.

 

[FrankTrollman]

No, they do not extend beyond the creature. Otherwise you could be tracked (if only for short distances) by scent. The spell says that you cannot be tracked by scent at all. That means not from 30 feet away, not from 5 feet away, no tracking, no scent.

-Frank

 

[Magic Slim]

So in essence this makes the creature have no scent. What then happens if the creature is walking across a field of snow? Do the footprints never appear or do they appear then disappear? If you treat PWT as removing the cause then the creature has no scent and the footprints never appear. If you treat it as removing the effect then the scent and footprints are there as long as the creature is, but they disappear when the creature moves.

Pass without Trace: "The subject can move through any type of terrain and leave neither footprints nor scent. Tracking the subject is impossible by nonmagical means."

I'd assume that an Invisible, Pass Without Trace'd creature standing in a snowfield would be noticeable due to the depressions it would produce from walking (those depressions in the snow would immediately disappear if the creature moved), just like it would if it was standing in water.

Slim

 

[RedShirtNo5]

Can you negate a troglodyte's stench by casting pass without trace on it?

RedShirt

 

[Stormrunner]

Can you negate a troglodyte's stench by casting pass without trace on it?

RedShirt

I believe you could, and that's certainly a creative use of the spell. However, note that PWT has a range of Touch, and unless you're facing only a single trog, your sorceror probably has better things to do than run around the battlefield touching each troglodyte. Furthermore, anyone who already succumbed to the scent would still be sickened for the full duration - and those who successfully saved would be immune, so it would only benefit those who have yet to come within 30' of the trog. Seems like a lotta effort for little gain.
OTOH, a trog sorceror could cast it on himself to avoid incapacitating non-trog allies - and as the caster, could dismiss the effect any time as a free action.