Paladin of Helm - Help?

[Rechan]

After running a few sessions for some teens I now sat down and made characters with them. One has went with an evil rogue, another with a Deva shaman, and a third is going with a Paladin of Helm.

For those who don't know, Helm is the God of Guardians, Protectors and the Protected. Worshiped by watchmen, bodyguards, those that they protect, and his clergy.

The player of the Paladin seemed very into defense, and when I mentioned a few gods (pulling a few from FR), he went with Helm. My problem with Helm is that he's very... dry and straight forward, and I'm sort of low on inspiration for adventures/hooks to appeal to a Paladin of Helm.

I at least could think of a quest for the player. I gave him 1) a magic shield, and 2) a quest to retrieve the ashes of a Saint in the Church - a great warrior who prevented the sacking of a town from a battalion of soldiers by holding a bridge by himself.

Besides that though, I'm sort of stumped for hooks that would appeal to the Paladin of Protectors that won't be too, well, obvious and boring (specially when they might conflict with the evil thief). The campaign is just your typical "adventurers going about the land" in no particular setting or goals.

 

[Sunseeker]

Poor townsfolk beset by bandits.
Old folks in need of crossing the street.
Young women being kidnapped for slavery.
Children being taken from their parents.
Corrupt guards abusing the people they're supposed to protect.

These may not be specific to Helm, but the Paladin is your pretty straight-up protector of the innocent and Helm plays right into that. So, pretty much anything that involves protecting, helping, saving, ect... would probably appeal well.

 

[Rune]

The point of playing a paladin (or, for that matter, any character with a code) is to have that code tested. If you don't already have a code laid out for you, collaborate with the player on what his code actually is.

Then, find ways to challenge that character's very belief in whether the spirit or the letter of the code is more important--whether the code will be adhered to, even when doing so will lead to apparent defeat--whether the code is really the core of the character, or merely a mantle worn--whether adherence to the code is worth sacrificing his abilities and status as a paladin, his life, even the lives of others for...





Man, I really want to play a paladin.

 

[Hand of Evil]

As Rune said...start with the code, I use the Boy Scout Oath as a guide line for my players but any will do. Just work with the player on defining it.

Then as a DM find ways to challenge the player with that code. Example, what holds more value to the player, the word of the god OR the word of the temple, which is spoken by a cleric, what happens when they come into conflict?

 

[Rechan]

I appreciate the suggestion but I'm not going to do anything with the Code.

First, these are kids and they're not looking for deep, meaningful roleplaying. They're still somewhat new and I am going to Go Slow with them. The player didn't pick the class because of the Code, so I'm not going to push it.

Secondly, I don't like that type of play (code-pushing) to begin with.

Thirdly there's the issue with the Evil Rogue player. This happened last session:
[sblock]As they exited the mine, they were attacked by The Half-Elf that had been beaten up last session, along with some thugs he hired. What ensued was a difficult battle with this result:

Early in the fight, one of the mercenaries surrendered when he was reduced to 2 HP. At the end of the fight, the half-elf was at 4 HP. The Fighter PC asked to just break the half-elf's leg, and with some off-the-cuff rolling, I said sure. Then the Rogue decides to just knock the half-elf unconscious.

Rogue: I just leave the half-elf alive, and walk over to the surrendered mercenary guy and kill him.
Fighter: What! Why would you do that? You're killing the guy who surrendered, but sparing the guy who hired these guys to come after us?
Rogue: Sure! He'll wake up and tell everyone we kicked his ass. Our legend will grow!
Fighter: And hire more guys to come after us!
Rogue: And we'll kill them too!
Fighter: I... I just kill the half-elf, so he doesn't come after us again.[/sblock]
As you can see, any sort of moral issue could easily be dismantled by the little sociopath or devolve into an in-party fight, and I am not going to let that happen.

What I want are ways to flesh out the Helm church to make them feel less bland to me, and hooks/quests that feel more interesting that again, aren't bland. Because "Protect, protect this, protect that" is... going to get repetitive.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I really wish I could offer something that will "save your game"...because you're gonna need it. A paladin and an evil psychopath in the same group is simply *not* going to work. Period. You will have infighting, which will escalate up until one, both or all quit. What you basically have allowed is someone with a child/teen mentality to play Capatain America, and you allowed another to play Bin Laden...in the same group...and you're expecting them to get along?

Anyway, my unfortunate suggestion..kill them all. Then let them roll new characters with conditions...say, everyone has to be humans and Good/Neutral. For beginning players, having them all *want* to work together and keep eachother alive is the most important thing...after they get into it and start to get the hang of things, then the can branch out to try the 'wierd stuff'.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Rune]

I appreciate the suggestion but I'm not going to do anything with the Code.

First, these are kids and they're not looking for deep, meaningful roleplaying. They're still somewhat new and I am going to Go Slow with them. The player didn't pick the class because of the Code, so I'm not going to push it.

Secondly, I don't like that type of play (code-pushing) to begin with.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting that you push anything, rather that you put the paladin in situations that allow him to explore his relationship with his code. Without a specific code, it's a little harder, but not impossible...it just becomes implicit.

It is, of course, entirely up to the player whether or not he wants to follow up on these situations (or even notice them), but presumably even a kid knows that the character he has chosen has a set of beliefs that he lives his life by, even if the player doesn't particularly care to know what, precisely, they are.

Thirdly there's the issue with the Evil Rogue player. This happened last session:
[sblock]As they exited the mine, they were attacked by The Half-Elf that had been beaten up last session, along with some thugs he hired. What ensued was a difficult battle with this result:

Early in the fight, one of the mercenaries surrendered when he was reduced to 2 HP. At the end of the fight, the half-elf was at 4 HP. The Fighter PC asked to just break the half-elf's leg, and with some off-the-cuff rolling, I said sure. Then the Rogue decides to just knock the half-elf unconscious.

Rogue: I just leave the half-elf alive, and walk over to the surrendered mercenary guy and kill him.
Fighter: What! Why would you do that? You're killing the guy who surrendered, but sparing the guy who hired these guys to come after us?
Rogue: Sure! He'll wake up and tell everyone we kicked his ass. Our legend will grow!
Fighter: And hire more guys to come after us!
Rogue: And we'll kill them too!
Fighter: I... I just kill the half-elf, so he doesn't come after us again.[/sblock]
As you can see, any sort of moral issue could easily be dismantled by the little sociopath or devolve into an in-party fight, and I am not going to let that happen.

What I want are ways to flesh out the Helm church to make them feel less bland to me, and hooks/quests that feel more interesting that again, aren't bland. Because "Protect, protect this, protect that" is... going to get repetitive.

Well, there you go! With the "sociopath" in the party, you've got all the hooks you need, and you barely have to do a thing. Just give the paladin people to protect and incentive for the sociopath to want to kill the charges (when necessary, which it probably won't be).

Or, you could charge the Paladin with protecting the rogue! Hilarity ensues!

As for specific tenets of the faith...a few questions are in order:

Whom, and under what conditions, does Helm protect? (The weak? Bullies that have been newly humbled by the party? Captured prisoners?)

By what means, and to what extent, do the agents of Helm protect? (Is offense the best defense? Are first strikes allowed?)

Does the quality and extent of protection offered by the agents of Helm relate to the protected individual's capacity to tithe to the church of Helm? (If so, what is the degree of variance?)

Are there wandering protectors in the service of Helm, or are all protectors specifically charged with missions from the church? (If there are wandering protectors, could the PC be one--most of the time? It would probably simplify things--and would also free him up to interpret his own role on a case-by-case basis.)

 

[Loonook]

Didn't Helm kill Mystra for deciding to sneak by back to her Godshead during the Time of Troubles?

Helmites do not screw around with their mission. They are the stone that doesn't move, the guardian who swallows the key. They are the warriors who protect the very stars and sky, and they do not stop their mission.

I never found Helm a cold deity; he is the ultimate Cop. Screw Tyr, Helm follows the letter, ink, paper, and pen of their own law. Helm is also the enforcer of Ao; I honestly always felt him to fill a position similar to the Blackstaff in Dresden Files. Helm was tasked with all of the power to kill a deity and held the law for it; the Paladin is seeking out a mission and needs must as the Godhead drives.

If he has a mission he will be tested; the Rogue is there for a reason, but he is on his mission. The needs of the many outweigh the few? Perhaps...

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Sunseeker]

I appreciate the suggestion but I'm not going to do anything with the Code.

First, these are kids and they're not looking for deep, meaningful roleplaying. They're still somewhat new and I am going to Go Slow with them. The player didn't pick the class because of the Code, so I'm not going to push it.

Secondly, I don't like that type of play (code-pushing) to begin with.

As a long time Paladin player, I agree. Code-pushing has always struck me as an excuse for the DM to be a jerk about things I've decided to care about. I'm fine with occasional Code-related matters, but they shouldn't be the norm by any means. It either comes across as excessively deep, or pathetically shallow, and rarely does either one come across well.

Thirdly there's the issue with the Evil Rogue player. This happened last session:
[sblock]As they exited the mine, they were attacked by The Half-Elf that had been beaten up last session, along with some thugs he hired. What ensued was a difficult battle with this result:

Early in the fight, one of the mercenaries surrendered when he was reduced to 2 HP. At the end of the fight, the half-elf was at 4 HP. The Fighter PC asked to just break the half-elf's leg, and with some off-the-cuff rolling, I said sure. Then the Rogue decides to just knock the half-elf unconscious.

Rogue: I just leave the half-elf alive, and walk over to the surrendered mercenary guy and kill him.
Fighter: What! Why would you do that? You're killing the guy who surrendered, but sparing the guy who hired these guys to come after us?
Rogue: Sure! He'll wake up and tell everyone we kicked his ass. Our legend will grow!
Fighter: And hire more guys to come after us!
Rogue: And we'll kill them too!
Fighter: I... I just kill the half-elf, so he doesn't come after us again.[/sblock]
As you can see, any sort of moral issue could easily be dismantled by the little sociopath or devolve into an in-party fight, and I am not going to let that happen.

Ah, the ever-persistent problem of the evil player in the NG to LG party...or perhaps it's the larger issue of too many 12-year-olds playing GTA3. Whatever the case is, I have a feeling that the resolution is going to take place outside the game and off the table, because I'm going to bet you that that sociopath is going to keep pushing and playing that angle until he gets to some really twisted and scary stuff that you probably don't want his mother to hear about.

What I want

are ways to flesh out the Helm church to make them feel less bland to me, and hooks/quests that feel more interesting that again, aren't bland. Because "Protect, protect this, protect that" is... going to get repetitive.

Maybe that's the problem right there. It's not about what you want.

What reason are you giving them to flesh out the church? Why does it NEED improvement? Because you find it dull? That's not a very good argument. And I disagree that "protest this, protect that" will become repetitive and bland, it only will because honestly, you've set your mind to the fact that it will be. Be creative with what needs protecting and it won't be bland, even if YOU find it bland, your players may not and that's the point.

 

[Aran Thule]

As others have posted, i think having a paladin and an evil thief in the party is a timebomb waiting to happen.
But if your not playing by a strict code then you might be ok