Paladin mount advancement… Skill-points, Feats?

[Whodat]

Paladin mount advancement… Skill-points, Feats?

As a paladin increases in level, his mount increases in both Intelligence and HD -- among other things.

Let’s say that a 15th level paladin has a heavy warhorse for a mount. Because of the bonuses that come with being a paladin’s mount, its Intelligence has been raised 10, to a score of 12 -- which grants the mount a +1 Int modifier.

Should a creature with a +1 modifier to Intelligence start gaining skill points?

Does a paladin’s mount gain feats as their HD increases?

I’m pretty sure that the “gifts” that come from being a paladin’s mount are supposed to be reward for the creature’s advancement -- and that additional skills and feats aren’t supposed to be factored in. Am I wrong?

 

[Skaros]

I believe that you follow the normal monster manual advancement rules when applying the extra HD.

If I recall correctly, Defenders of the Faith specifically mentions that the extra HD grant extra skill points, etc, as normal.

For instance, as the paladin in my group gains levels, at some point her hippogriff mount will advance from size Large to size Huge, including a stat boost, etc.

Or has someone encountered rulings that indicate you don't follow normal advancement rules?

Skaros

 

[Mahali]

Familiars and mounts get Bonus HD not advancement HD. No skills or feats for are given for these HD.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Familiar vs. Mount

I'm not sure it's so cut and dried. Familiars have been clarified, in that they don't actually get any extra HD as the master gains levels. They gain hp based directly off their master's, and are treated as having HD equal to their master's level for HD-based effects.

A paladin's mount, on the other hand, actually gains extra HD. Nowhere in the rules (AFAIK) are the terms "bonus HD" and "advancement HD" defined, so one cannot with certainty say that the two are not one and the same thing, or more precisely, that the first does not fall within the scope of the second.

As a creature advanced to greater HD is considered bigger and stronger than the average, and a paladin's mount is is said to become stronger than the average, I'd say there's a compelling argument that a paladin's mount does, indeed, advance as it gains HD.

There was a great thread about this a few weeks ago (I myself started it because I had just created a new-minted paladin) but alas, I have no Search feature to provide the link to the arguments and suggestions.

 

[Spatzimaus]

It's screwy. First off, Mounts are magical beasts, which only get 1 skill point per HD regardless of INT. It doesn't say "8+INT skill points" like an Outsider or whatever gets.
Second, IIRC the PHB does state that the mount gets BAB, HP, and save increases from the extra HD. This implies that these are true magical beast HD, not just bonus HP like a familiar gets. So, it'd get Feats, too.

But, in most cases I wouldn't WANT my mount to change a size. All that expensive Barding I had made would now be useless, and try finding a new stable? For horses, not so much a problem; for practically anything else, problem. I mean sure, having a humongous Giant Eagle as a steed may seem like a good idea, but it's even less capable of going into a dungeon with you, and it'd eat a ton (literally).

There's another problem. Not every creature HAS an advancement table; or, they can't advance more than a small number of HD. A level 20 Paladin's mount has gained 8 HD; what if the creature's advancement doesn't go that far?

Frankly, this whole thing is so messed up that IMC we designed our own mount system. Works FAR better.

 

[Stalker0]

Considering that I know that at higher levels horses and the like start sucking as paly mounts, I think just to maintain balance they should get all the bonuses for their hp, helps them live longer and contribute more.

 

[Caliban]

Bonus HD are not the same as advancing the creature in HD.

Otherwise you have Huge Paladin mounts running around.

And they obviously don't advance as Magical Beasts, given that the bonus HD are D8's, and not D10's.

It's basically a prestige class for your mount. You get exactly what the PHB says you get. It doesn't specify that the mount get's feats or skill points, therefore it doesn't. Instead it gets increased Int, Natural Armor, hit points, and Strength.

 

[Artoomis]

Caliban has expressed what is probably the majority opinion on this unclear rule.

A minority position, fully justifiable, is that paldin's mounts gain skill points and feats as magical beasts according the their hit die - just as their saves and attack rolls improve.

Either position is justifiable - I'm hoping they re-write that section to make it more clear.

 

[Caliban]

Caliban has expressed what is probably the majority opinion on this unclear rule.

A minority position, fully justifiable, is that paldin's mounts gain skill points and feats as magical beasts according the their hit die - just as their saves and attack rolls improve.

Either position is justifiable - I'm hoping they re-write that section to make it more clear.

I don't really understand how that is justifieable, since their bonus HD obviously aren't magical beast HD.

 

[Artoomis]

I don't really understand how that is justifieable, since their bonus HD obviously aren't magical beast HD.

Well, I don't see how it's "obvious" that the bonus hit die are not magical beast hit die.

1. They are magical beasts, not animals.

2. They do get improved saves and attacks rolls based on the improved hit die - in fact, we are "remined" that they do in the rules, implying that it's obvious that would do get those benefits of the bonus hit die.

Now I think that implies that they get skills and feats as a magical beast as well. You don't.

Fine. Both positions can be well-defended form the rules are written. WHat was inteded? I don't know. It looks to me like they were intended to be treated as magical beasts in all repsects, but you disgaree, of course.

Fine. Either way follows the rules as written.

Of course, you get very few skill points and only a couple of feats anyway, so it's really not a big deal anyway. It should only help the mount survive, which is a significant challenge anyway.

Perhaps this will be made clearer in 3.5e, perhaps not.