oversized bastard sword use without proficiency

[two]

Is it possible to use an oversized (large) bastard sword (by a medium character) in 2 hands (for a total of -6 to hit, proficiency + oversized) dealing 2d8 damage?

Or MUST one take the exotic weapon proficiency in order to use it in 1 hand normally, or an oversized version in 2 hands?

 

[IcyCool]

Is it possible to use an oversized (large) bastard sword (by a medium character) in 2 hands (for a total of -6 to hit, proficiency + oversized) dealing 2d8 damage?

Or MUST one take the exotic weapon proficiency in order to use it in 1 hand normally, or an oversized version in 2 hands?

A bastard sword is an exotic one-handed weapon, but may be used as a martial weapon if it is wielded with two hands. Note, however, that it is not a two-handed weapon. So a non-martial proficient can use the bastard sword in one or two hands at a -4 penalty. A user with martial weapon proficiency but no exotic (bastard sword) proficiency may wield the sword one-handed at a -4 penalty, and two handed without penalty. And a user with exotic (bastard sword) proficiency can wield it in one or two hands without penalty.

Now increase the bastard sword size to large. It is now a two-handed weapon for medium sized creatures. So our three hypothetical people wield it at the following penalties:

Non-martial non-exotic: -6 (-4 non-proficient, -2 improperly sized)

Martial, non-exotic: -2 (-2 oversized)

Martial, exotic: -2 (-2 oversized)

In order to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand, you must have the Monkey Grip feat. So our three hypotheticals with monkey grip would have the following penalties while wielding the large bastard sword one-handed:

Non-martial non-exotic: -6 (-4 non-proficient, -2 improperly sized)

Martial, non-exotic: -6 (-6 non-proficient, -2 oversized)

Martial, exotic: -2 (-2 oversized)

 

[Bront]

A bastard sword is an exotic one-handed weapon, but may be used as a martial weapon if it is wielded with two hands. Note, however, that it is not a two-handed weapon. So a non-martial proficient can use the bastard sword in one or two hands at a -4 penalty. A user with martial weapon proficiency but no exotic (bastard sword) proficiency may wield the sword one-handed at a -4 penalty, and two handed without penalty. And a user with exotic (bastard sword) proficiency can wield it in one or two hands without penalty.

Now increase the bastard sword size to large. It is now a two-handed weapon for medium sized creatures. So our three hypothetical people wield it at the following penalties:

Non-martial non-exotic: -6 (-4 non-proficient, -2 improperly sized)

Martial, non-exotic: -2 (-2 oversized)

Martial, exotic: -2 (-2 oversized)

In order to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand, you must have the Monkey Grip feat. So our three hypotheticals with monkey grip would have the following penalties while wielding the large bastard sword one-handed:

Non-martial non-exotic: -6 (-4 non-proficient, -2 improperly sized)

Martial, non-exotic: -6 (-6 non-proficient, -2 oversized)

Martial, exotic: -2 (-2 oversized)

Actualy, the way the rule reads, you basicly treat a bastard sword as a great sword unless you have the exotic weapon proficiency, so you can NOT wield it one handed with a non-weapon proficiency penalty. (I believe there is an specific example for this somewhere in one of the core books)

This means that you can't wield a bastard sword one size up UNLESS you have the exotic weapon proficiency feat, in which case you can wield it using two hands at a penalty.

Monkey grip throws things off a bit from that, but I'm speaking fromt he base SRD of what you can do.

 

[IcyCool]

Actualy, the way the rule reads, you basicly treat a bastard sword as a great sword unless you have the exotic weapon proficiency, so you can NOT wield it one handed with a non-weapon proficiency penalty. (I believe there is an specific example for this somewhere in one of the core books)

This means that you can't wield a bastard sword one size up UNLESS you have the exotic weapon proficiency feat, in which case you can wield it using two hands at a penalty.

Monkey grip throws things off a bit from that, but I'm speaking fromt he base SRD of what you can do.

The SRD has the following to say about the Bastard Sword:

Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

You could certainly read that to mean that you simply can't use the Bastard Sword one-handed without proficiency, but as it is possible to wield one-handed, I figured that this meant using it one-handed without the exotic weapon proficiency incurred the non-proficiency penalty.

Wielding it effectively in one hand requires the exotic weapon proficiency. Non-proficient wielders suffer the non-proficiency penalty. Just like the spiked chain. Wielding it effectively requires the exotic weapon proficiency, and non-proficient users suffer the non-proficiency penalty.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I always like looking to the 3E Main FAQ to answer this question.

It mentions it in two places.

Does the penalty for not having a Martial Weapon
Proficiency feat stack with the penalty for not having an
Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat? For example, what
happens if a sorcerer uses a bastard sword in one hand and
does not have either the Martial Weapon Proficiency or the
Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for a bastard sword? Is her
penalty a straight –4 for not having the Exotic Weapon
Proficiency, or does she suffer a –4 for not having the
Martial Weapon Proficiency in addition to the –4 for not
having the Exotic Weapon Proficiency because a bastard
sword requires special training to use with one hand?

No, you don’t get two penalties for nonproficiency. You’re
either proficient with a weapon or you’re not.

If you’re Medium-size, you have to be proficient with a
bastard sword to use it in one hand; if you’re not proficient, you
don’t have the option to use the sword one-handed at all.

Assuming that the sorcerer in your example is Medium-size,
she would have to use the sword in two hands and would suffer
the –4 nonproficiency penalty when doing so.

Just what does a Small character have to do to use a
bastard sword? I have gotten the impression that a halfling
can use a bastard sword as a two-handed weapon provided
that she has a Strength score of 13 or better and she takes
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword). Correct?

There is no Strength requirement to use a bastard sword. A
bastard sword is a Medium-Size weapon. It follows all the rules
for Medium-Size weapons, except that a Medium-Size creature
wielding the sword in one hand takes a –4 attack penalty with it
unless she has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword).

A Small creature using the sword in two hands is just like a
Medium-Size creature wielding it in one hand. So, your
halfling (or gnome) takes a –4 attack penalty when using the
sword two-handed and takes no attack penalty if she has Exotic
Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) and uses two hands;
because the sword is Medium-Size, a Small character cannot
use it one-handed.

So, there we have it - perfectly clear.

"If you’re Medium-size, you have to be proficient with a bastard sword to use it in one hand; if you’re not proficient, you don’t have the option to use the sword one-handed at all."

and

"A Medium-Size creature wielding the sword in one hand takes a –4 attack penalty with it unless she has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)."

Thanks, 3E FAQ!

Well, let's check the 3.5 Main FAQ instead.

The bastard sword, lance, and dwarven waraxe are all two-handed
weapons that can be used in one hand under the correct
circumstances (the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe are
shown on Table 7–5 as one-handed exotic weapons, but they’re
really two-handed weapons). Treat all three of these weapons
as two-handed weapons when determining who can use them
and how.

"The table says one-handed, but they're really two-handed"?

Oh, sod off, FAQ. Don't talk nonsense.

Okay, we can see that the FAQs are of no help when it comes to dealing with the bastard sword.

-Hyp.

 

[IcyCool]

"The table says one-handed, but they're really two-handed"

Well, there you have the technical answer to your question. And I guess I get to make a new house rule. Yay! Everybody wins!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, there you have the technical answer to your question.

It's not an answer to the question. It's inaccurate.

The 3.5 FAQ is all over the place when it comes to weapon sizes. The distinct impression given is that when the answers were being written, the author still had his head in the 3E weapon size system, and didn't 'get' the new rules.

-Hyp.

 

[ElectricDragon]

The 3.0 Faq is also wrong in that there is a 13 STR requirement to wield a bastard sword one-handed. Like in the 3.5 SRD it is listed with the feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency instead of with the weapon description under equipment.

Just a little bit of counter-intuitiveness.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Hypersmurf]

The 3.0 Faq is also wrong in that there is a 13 STR requirement to wield a bastard sword one-handed.

Well, it's not a direct requirement.

The 13 Str is a requirement for the feat, and the feat is a requirement for using the sword in one hand.

But if you gain the Exotic Weapon Proficiency as a class feature or bonus feat somehow without needing to satisfy the prerequisites (as a 3.5 example - a dwarf has Weapon Familiarity with dwarven waraxe, meaning he treats it as a martial weapon and can thus wield it in one hand without requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, so he doesn't need to satisfy the 13 Str prerequisite), you can wield the sword in one hand without needing a 13 Str.

So strictly, the 3E FAQ was right in this instance - the prerequisite isn't required for wielding the sword in one hand... only the feat is. (It's just that in most cases, you need the prerequisite to have the feat.)

-Hyp.

 

[two]

Since there doesn't seem to be a good firm rules interpretation, does anyone think it's overpowered to allow non-proficient use of a bastard sword in one hand at a -4 penalty?