[ot] What happens when a sword hits chainmail?

[MerakSpielman]

In real life, I mean. Can a sword cut through mail? What about plate mail? I suppose there are two ways of trying to penetrate - slashing or piercing, and piercing seems best.

But what kind of damage would a weapon take from this? Imagine a low-quality weapon vs. the high-quality ones they're talking about in the "buying a katana" thread. They'd be dulled, at least, right?

Just wondering out loud, 'cause in D&D you just don't have to worry about weapon/armor repair and maintenance.

 

[Dagger75]

From my limited knowledge of the past...

I don't how true this is.

But chain and plate isn't really meant to stop the blow from hitting you. It was made to stop the sword the cutting you. To Middle Age "doctors" it was easier to set a broken arm then heal a large gash in the arm. I could be so wrong it isn't funny.

 

[NiTessine]

A strong longsword slash against chainmail would probably slash through several rings and sink them into the wound it would undoubtedly cause. However, this wound would be a lot smaller than with unprotected flesh.

Platemail on the other hand... Beats me. I don't think it would go through, but there would probably be some sort of denting.

As for a piercing weapon, say, a rapier... It would go through chainmail, at least to the point where the blade becomes wider than the rings. From that point onwards, it depends entirely on the qualities of the chainmail and the rapier. A rapier against platemail, though... Not a chance. It'd have to hit a seam between the armor pieces to get through.

Of course, this is all coming from a person who hasn't studied the subject very extensively, and is relying strongly on common sense, which is not one of his greater assets.

 

[Enkhidu]

A lot of what happenes in this situation depends on what other protections are also begin used.

For example, chain mail by itself - no under or over padding - isn't very protective at all (for the purposes of this discussion, we'll assume that he or she is wearing quality riveted chain mail with a good density - butt-linked chain or chain mail that hangs in such a way as to be "see through" is much worse that what I'm about to describe). If it has a aketon (basically what you think of as padded armor) is worn underneath, then it does much better, and if it also has a gambeson (padded armor worn over the chain) it's even better.

In all cases, chain mail protects against cuts, but does little to protect against impact. Therefore, a sword that hits chain mail will almost certainly not get through all them links to cut deeply into flesh. It might burst some links, but the edge will most likely not cut through the armor. But, depending on where it hit, it's liable to break something. A solid sword cut to the collarbone - even through chain - is likely to snap the bone, and ribs are likely to be cracked by a solid hit. But the chain will probably hold back the edge from anything but a heavy, two handed axe or a charged/set spear).

At it's best, chain mail (with the proper padding) can also repel arrows from 50 to 75 pound pull bows. Crossbows are another matter entirely.

Enk - who has wound waaay to much 16 gauge wire into chainmail springs

 

[Kilmore]

Actually, if you don't mind the pun, from what I've heard, the whole point of the rapier is to stick into the spots between the heavy plates of heavier metal armor. I guess it makes more sense than trying to hack and slash your way through.

Another thing about a slashing hit to chainmail is that the hit would likely seperate a number of links from the armor and leave the chiurgeon picking them out of the boo boo. This, I imagine, would be unpleasant.

As far as damage to the sword goes, there's a bit of maintenence that goes into medieval weapons that isn't touched on in the game rules. Fighters expecting or returning from a battle spend a some time sharpening their swords and blades. But I believe that this can be considered an "assumed" activity. Few people I know of wish to roleplay sharpening their swords.

Then again, that's what squires were for.

 

[Marius Delphus]

It depends on many factors, including the weight of the sword, the force behind the blow, the direction of the blow, and the quality of both weapon and armor. Let's assume "default D&D" quality for the armor and sword; that is, they are both made of unexceptional but durable steel.

If you aim a really powerful, chopping/hacking blow at a chain-armored target, and the target isn't dodging or twisting out of the way, then you could conceivably chop through quite a few links and drive the broken pieces into the target. A full-strength longsword chop downward upon the collarbone/shoulder of an unaware target could produce this kind of result.

If you aim a moderately powerful, thrusting/piercing blow at a chain-armored target, and connect, you could conceivably run the target through with only moderate interference from the armor (depending on the breadth of your blade). A medium-strength rapier lunge to the midsection of a surprised target could produce this kind of result.

If you aim a casual, slicing/slashing blow at a chain-armored target, you could conceivably run your sword along the armor and not even hurt the target. A light slash across the arm of an aware and active target could produce this kind of result.

Plate armor is even better against slicing maneuvers and chopping maneuvers, and somewhat better against piercing maneuvers. Greatswords would seem to be pretty handy for chopping through plate armor, because of their weight and length (leverage/momentum). It is thought in some quarters that the flamberge-type blade is even better, in that it concentrates chopping power into a few impact points.

In addition, part of the advantage of plate against most attacks is that it is hard to hit "straight on," so that a properly-delivered point or edge which would ordinarily pierce the armor will instead be deflected off to one side. I imagine D&D's armor proficiencies include training in how to move so that the armor "does its job"; this would be true of all armor types.

One thing chain armor is really abysmal at is protecting the wearer against heavy, blunt blows (plate, again, is somewhat better). The armor deforms right along with the delivery of force. Its weight, and the padding underneath, will surely dampen the severity of the blow, but let's face it, it's just hard to avoid a good clobbering unless the attacker misses altogether.

 

[Synicism]

Would a sword go through chainmail? It depends on how you hit it. Chainmail is designed to spread out the force from a cut. If you stab it with something like, say, a rapier, or other narrow sword, the blade will go right through it like it's paper. Incidentally, this is why chainmail in GURPS has a good damage resistance except versus piercing attacks.

As far as plates go, I'd be inclined to say that no, a sword is not going to cut through the plates. First of all, plate armor is angled and beveled so blows will glance. Second of all, late-period armor was bullet-tested. The armorsmith would shoot it with a musket to make sure it could stop a gunshot. Good armor was quite successful at this.

That's one of the reasons many soldiers carried heavy bashing weapons. They could buckle the plates and damage both the armor and the guy inside it. Many two-handed weapons were either blunt (you had a giant, metal mace) or designed for piercing, like the triangular-bladed estoc, which was basically a big spike with a sword hilt, designed to punch through metal plates.

 

[Xeriar]

In real life, I mean. Can a sword cut through mail? What about plate mail? I suppose there are two ways of trying to penetrate - slashing or piercing, and piercing seems best.

But what kind of damage would a weapon take from this? Imagine a low-quality weapon vs. the high-quality ones they're talking about in the "buying a katana" thread. They'd be dulled, at least, right?

Just wondering out loud, 'cause in D&D you just don't have to worry about weapon/armor repair and maintenance.

A friend of mine tested chain mail with some fun things. 4-in-1 chain mail (what you usually see people wear) will not stop a 45-pound bow worth jack, though 6-in-1 (each ring has six other rings linked to it) will, however, though the guy on the recieving end will not be enjoying life.

Obviously, chainmail isn't too effective against hammers and maces. It's purpose is largely to prevent scrapes, cuts, and halfhearted (or poisoned) strikes that later get infected, etc. A good, solid strike will still incapacitate a wearer of chain mail. But even a katana that doesn't cut the links has a lot of force behind it... And the links dig into flesh and muscle and yuck, yuck yuck yucky...

Plate mail is in better shape, it's effectively what the SCA uses vs. wooden sticks. People still get bruised, as armor that protects everywhere is not so easy to move around in.

 

[Kamard]

The great grand daddy of your thrusting rapier-esque swords, the estoc, was a big glorified nail, triangular in cross section. It worked like a charm, not only opening a big triangular hole in your armour, but also a big triangular hole in you. And triangular holes in flesh are bad news.

 

[Fred Delles]

From Poul Anderson's editorial "On Thud and Blunder":
"Not even with a samurai sword do you cut through armor... At the same time, armor does have its vulnerabilities. These are not so much to the thrust of the cleaving blow. I have witnessed experiments in which chain mail made from coat hanger wire, backed by a hay bale, could not be penetrated by sword, ax, or spear. Obviously only repeated impacts on the same spot could fatigue the metal enough to let a weapon through. Plate armor should be still hardier. Bear in mind that, in both cases, padding was worn beneath. Still, if a man was getting hit hour after hour, eventually it might prove too much for his body to endure, if heat prostration didn't get him first."


NO handheld weapon can slash through metal. Period. There IS a chance that some of the rings can bend, of course, and let a blow in. At the same time, longbow arrows (and other piercing weapons, if pointy and quick enough) can pierce even plate armor. Shields are around to block head shots, for bludgeons to the head can kill, even with armor.