Ogre Mage - CR 8?

[Great Guru]

I'm thinking that with a puny BAB of +3 and only 5 hit dice that CR 6 would be more realistic for the ogre mage. He's got some cool powers but not as heavy a punch as a CR 8 should have.

And while we're talking inappropriate CRs - what about the mountain giant from MM II? CR 26! Really? I think a single 26th level character would mop the floor with said giant. CR 15 looks more favorable to me.

What do you think and what other monsters out there in 3.0/3.5 have overrated CRs?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ogre Mage is definitely overrated, I think parties can mop the floor with them at ECL 5! Really, regeneration loses a lot of its magic when you realize you can still drown or strangle a creature to death. Even barring that, IME parties would just take to occasional 5 minute spurts of full on beating the utter crap out of thhe poor thing as it lay there limp, running up its nonlethal damage into the thousands so that they could then continue along travelling until the next regularly scheduled beat down, as they looked for a means to kill the thing or someone who could tell them how. It actually made them comical to my group, instead of the fearsome/scary horror movie vibe I thought they were supposed to give off, with the whole rising from the "dead" a minute after you thought you had "killed" it to attack once again.

For my submission, i recommend the Remorhaz as a being under-CR. I didn't fathom it in 3.0, and they didn't really change anything going to 3.5, so apparently WotC REALLY thinks that's a fair challenge for a level 7 party.
Of course, I'm an evil DM, so when i used one against my gestalt party, I felt the need to make my Remorhaz more fearsome. So I looked into the rules applications of Swallow Whole + natural burrow speed.

 

[Vigilance]

It's the combination of flight at will and invisibility at will, plus spell resistance, along with a 1/day 9d6 cone of cold that bumps up the Ogre Mage imo.

They are terrors outdoors. Very hard to pin down, and usually start off the combat with a 9d6 cone of cold that catches the entire party in its AoE, since, with invisibility at will, and flight, the ogre can set up a perfect shot.

Plus, the ogre mage can usually retreat whenever it wants at low levels to regenerate, thanks to that invisibility at will plus flight.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm thinking that with a puny BAB of +3 and only 5 hit dice that CR 6 would be more realistic for the ogre mage. He's got some cool powers but not as heavy a punch as a CR 8 should have.

Apparently Mike Mearls agrees with you: Ogre Mage Makeover

There are quite a few CRs that aren't very accurate. Most of them are in MM2 and Fiend Folio. If you have a highly optimized group of pcs, pretty much every CR will be inaccurate.

I've found a good way to improve monsters without affecting their CR is to select better feats for them. Apart from that there isn't a lot you can do, except closely examine the monsters to make sure their CR is appropriate for their power.

 

[Vigilance]

Apparently Mike Mearls agrees with you: Ogre Mage Makeover

There are quite a few CRs that aren't very accurate. Most of them are in MM2 and Fiend Folio. If you have a highly optimized group of pcs, pretty much every CR will be inaccurate.

I've found a good way to improve monsters without affecting their CR is to select better feats for them. Apart from that there isn't a lot you can do, except closely examine the monsters to make sure their CR is appropriate for their power.

I think its important to realize that CRs are a guide not a rule, at least they should be.

The Ogre Mage is a very different beastie outside than it is in the dungeon, where its size and the cramped quarters hinder its mobility, which is in my opinion the key to its CR.

It deals 9d6 with that cone of cold and at 5th level, that's enough to take out a magic user even if he makes his save (average HP of 12, average cone of cold damage of 32, 16 if he makes his save).

Also, even if the mage survives the initial assault, the ogre mage's spell resistance are going to make inflicting fire damage at range difficult.

I dunno- I've seen ogre mages wipe the floor with parties when they got lucky or when the terrain favored their abilities.

And with a 14 Int and 14 Wis, I don't see Ogre Mages sitting around in 40 ft. rooms underground waiting for a party to kick the door in.

 

[Runestar]

If I wanted to make the ogre mage worth its cr, I would probably give it 3 more HD and replace its SLAs with wizard9 spellcasting or something.

But then it may lose some of its uniqueness as it then becomes just another spellcaster with more hp.

And while we're talking inappropriate CRs - what about the mountain giant from MM II? CR 26! Really? I think a single 26th level character would mop the floor with said giant. CR 15 looks more favorable to me.

Worse, it has a will save of only +10, so any wizard can easily dominate it and be on his way. And we all know that huge brutish foes tend to have crap will saves, so I won't really call it meta-gaming. I agree with cr15-16 tops. At any rate, the tarrasque seems more threatening than it.

For my submission, i recommend the Remorhaz as a being under-CR. I didn't fathom it in 3.0, and they didn't really change anything going to 3.5, so apparently WotC REALLY thinks that's a fair challenge for a level 7 party.

It is "fair" if you can accept that "expends 25% of the party's resources" means losing 1 PC, since that is typically what will happen (remorhaz springs out of the ice, swallows whole a PC, the rest of the party focus-fires on it while the fighter melts inside).

On my part, I feel the digestor does not warrant its cr6. It has no real attacks beyond its acid spray which doesn't really deal that much damage either.

I dunno about the tarrasque being cr20 either. I have heard about parties as low as lv14 taking it down.

Also, while not necessarily under-cr'ed, I do feel that a few spellcasting-type monsters, such as the nymph and ghaele are too fragile to warrant so high crs. Unless they are supported adequately with tanks, they will likely go down too quickly in combat before they can utilize their powers.

 

[Dandu]

Also, even if the mage survives the initial assault, the ogre mage's spell resistance are going to make inflicting fire damage at range difficult.

Orb of Fire says "Hi!"

 

[LockesMonk]

Yeah, our party fought an ogre mage, and because our ranger KEPT breaking strings or dropping his arrows (he's an awesome roller), none of us could really get at it when it was up in the air. I think that CR really just depends on the situation, because if it can get around flying or invisible, it can be quiiiite a problem.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It sounds to me like Ogre Mage is CR 8 mostly because of a (relative for the levels involved) powerful 1/day spell-like ability. That's pretty crappy design, IMO. Especially since he basically has to use it the first round before revealing himself to be sure to get it off before dying. And I distinctly remember advice in the MM saying that monsters aren't generally supposed to come right out firing off all of their daily resources, or their most powerful ones. They're supposed to be treated reasonably as creatures in the world. The Ogre Mage wouldn't want to waste his only nuke for the day on easy pickings and then be screwed later if he needs it, so it makes no sense to me that he'd just go and open a fight with it in most scenarios. Obviously, if he knows about the party and their threat level, that could be an exception.

I guess that design concept changed as more groups reported their spellcasters starting off fights with their heaviest hitters in the hopes of ending the fight sooner and take less damage. A rather tragic cycle of logic. "The faster things die, the safer we'll be," causing the DM to respond in kind with the NPCs.

Yeah, our party fought an ogre mage, and because our ranger KEPT breaking strings or dropping his arrows (he's an awesome roller), none of us could really get at it when it was up in the air. I think that CR really just depends on the situation, because if it can get around flying or invisible, it can be quiiiite a problem.

Ah, critical fumble rolls. Inserting "realism" into the game since 2001. Because everyone knows that in reality, if a line of archers all fires their bows in formation, surely at least one of them will destroy his bow beyond use or comically drop the ammunition.

 

[Great Guru]

CR 6 At Best

If an ogre mage only warrants a CR 8 if he's outside, flying, invisible, and gets off his Cone of Cold against the whole group he's not a CR 8 at all. The creature's ideal attack scenario isn't always going to happen for it.

I'm thinking CR 5 or 6. A 5th or 6th level party has access to Fly, See Invisibility, and Melf's Acid Arrow. If the DM allows it there's the whole line of Orb spells available which pretty much negates the SR advantage (which is why IMC I made them all evocations allowing SR).

Moreover, check out the crappy Will save (they are merely giants after all). Any spellcaster with Spell Penetration is going to have a decent shot at hitting them with mind-affecting effects. Bleah.