need help with permanent detect magic

[Aino]

Hi,

One of the characters in my group has cast detect magic permanently on him.
He has decided that his character will always automatically
use detect magic every 60 feet or upon entering a new room (we are playing a
dungeon crawl with lots of traps and riddles).

Am I being too strict, given that he had to spend some gold/xp to make it
permanent, when requiring him to actively announce when using it in character?
Otherwise, I feel that the game balance would suffer if I immediately present him any
magic related information without being asked for it, instead of the players
having to decide (and remember to do so) which area/items they want to check
for magic.

I would be glad if you could give me your opinions and advice on how you would
handle this situation.
​

Thanks.

 

[javcs]

He would get the first round effect always, but, for more information, he'd have to spend time concentrating.
For the first round effect, well, it's just another kind of vision ... the later rounds have to be actively announced by the player.

This is based off of the text for I think the metamagic feat Persistent Spell, could be wrong on the exact source, though. I had a similar situation once, and I remember searching my books, and found the above information.

 

[Simm]

He would get the first round effect always, but, for more information, he'd have to spend time concentrating.

I have to partially disagree. Yes he would always get the first round effect but concentration is the duration of the effect. Permanency would change the duration from concentration to permanent, so concentration would not be required to receive additional information. Interpreting RAW very strictly he would detect any magic in a 60' cone on the beginning of the round after the aura entered the area of effect and would receive additional information about the aura at the beginning of each subsequent turn until all information has been gleaned or the object leaves the area of effect.

So, as I see it the sequence runs.
Round 1: Character moves within 60 feet of a magical aura.
Round 2: Detect magic alerts the player to the presence of a magical aura.
Round 3: Character determines number of auras and the strength of the strongest.
Round 4: Character determines location and strength of each aura and can roll to discover type.

Note: If a character is has a magical aura 65 feet in front of him and runs past it on his turn it may not detect to him at all.

 

[irdeggman]

I interpret the concentration part as actively looking.

So he must actively look in a given direction.


Basically OP I agree that the PC must declare he has activated his detect magic since permanent spells can be activated at will

Detect Magic's spell description states

The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

The duration is concentration the spell's text description describes how it functions. It functions by studying - therefore the person with a permanant detect magic must "study" an area and gains the specified information after the specified length of "study time". It is not another type of vision.

For an equivalent example - a warlock gains the detect magic ability at second level and can use the spell "at will". To me that is how a permanant spell works, basically it is an at-will spell unless it is an effect type spell (for example reduce person - you don't get to turn it off you are permanently "reduced")

Now how I would handle it in game is if the player demonstrated a set pattern of behavour I would allow him to assume that his PC is behaving that way constantly - unless he states otherwise. So in this case if he specifies he is studying things when he enters a room then I would go with that until he stated something else. In this case though he needs to establish a duration for the studying, or go with the 1 round only. Establishing patterns alleviates the pain in the neck game play slow down for having to say the same thing over and over again and players tend to like it much better.

 

[Jack Simth]

Hi,

One of the characters in my group has cast detect magic permanently on him.
He has decided that his character will always automatically
use detect magic every 60 feet or upon entering a new room (we are playing a
dungeon crawl with lots of traps and riddles).

Am I being too strict, given that he had to spend some gold/xp to make it
permanent, when requiring him to actively announce when using it in character?
Otherwise, I feel that the game balance would suffer if I immediately present him any
magic related information without being asked for it, instead of the players
having to decide (and remember to do so) which area/items they want to check
for magic.​

You will regret doing that - you'll end up with something very much like what AGC had happen after The Treaty was broken.

I would be glad if you could give me your opinions and advice on how you would
handle this situation.

Thanks.

Let him have the info out of combat - do remember, though, that there is a delay. If there's anything actively trying to kill him in the room (anything where individual rounds would matter), he only knows whether or not magic is present - not how strong, or where.

It's also pretty easy to foil - a Lightning Bolt trap, set to fire down the hallway when a leaded door is opened wouldn't be detected through this method - before the door is opened, lead blocks Detect Magic, so nothing is seen. The trap doesn't have any detection methods outside the room in question (it's only looking at the door) so there's no magic outside the room to detect. After the door is opened, it's too late (let the guy who invested in the Trapfinding class ability, Search, and Disable Device find something like that, though). Variations use any spell you like - Haste on those already in the room, a Summon Monster, whatever. Likewise, a trap that incorporates the 1st level Sor/Wiz spell Magic Aura won't be located. Neither of this type should be common, though - your player is being reasonably smart and creative, and such should be rewarded by success in his endeavors.

Mind you, traps in isolation are boring. They're "roll search, roll disable device, move on". They need to be combined with creatures to make non-boring combinations. A few simple examples...

The Inflict X wounds trap on the floor, where a bunch of undead are located (the undead heal every round that they're in contact with the floor, the party gets hurt every round). The undead actively prevent any attempts to disable the trap, and you've got a reasonably memorable encounter.

A bunch of 10-foot concealed pit traps in the local BBEG's main chamber. Sure, they're ... what, CR 1 or 2? But it prevents the Fighter from charging the BBEG and one-shotting the d4 hit die wizard ... and the delay in getting out of one is painful, even if you can make the Climb or Jump check easily (hint: the Fighter or Cleric in full plate won't). Plus anyone in them is denied line of effect to anyone elsewhere in the room. The BBEG, of course, favors Air Walk, Fly, and similar effects, and simply goes right over his own pits.

A ceiling of stone, supporting a large amount of loose rock, with the ceiling having been made of stones created by way of Transmute Mud to Rock, combine very well with a bunch of low-CR disposable minions with potions and a mechanical alarm pressure-plate just outside the door. Party trips alarm, minions drink potions, and drop potion bottles as the party enters ... inviting a quick Area Dispel, which will revert the ceiling to mud, causing the rocks to fall. Read up on the cave-in rules; they're nasty. As a variant, include a one-shot Transmute mud to Rock trap, set to go off when the mud hits the floor (instant cement). Make sure to include some form of cryptic warning - you don't really want a TPK that looks like "rocks fall, everyone dies".

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I'd definitely make him (and the party) pay for it. They'll be taking 3-4 times as long to run through a dungeon. I'd have monsters start mustering their forces and assaulting the party in waves.

Basically, yeah, if you let the player get away with this cheesy metagaming tactic, then it'll defeat all your hidden magical stuff.

Don't put up with cheesiness. It'll ruin your campaign.

 

[Jack Simth]

I'd definitely make him (and the party) pay for it. They'll be taking 3-4 times as long to run through a dungeon. I'd have monsters start mustering their forces and assaulting the party in waves.

... 3-4 times as long compared to what? He's spending three rounds every sixty feet - less than that, actually, as if he preceeds the party when checking an area for magic, he only needs a single round to know whether or not there's any magic present that he can detect. Every sixty feet of walking, he spends one standard action. As you get both a move and a standard action in a round, that's essentially a standard walking pace (assuming a base 30-foot movement score).

Compare to the party who has a rogue who checks every five-foot square for traps. The rogue takes a full-round action for each five feet of travel. Rogue-using party takes 12 rounds to travel sixty feet. The mage using Detect Magic, running the full three-round check every sixty feet, takes five rounds to go sixty feet, at one action (move or standard) per round. If he walks and concentrates, stopping only when he detects something (perfectly valid, RAW) then he's traveling at exactly the same pace as normal walking. The mage in question isn't spending much (if any) extra time at all, unless you're comparing to simply walking through a dangerous area with no precautions (which is seriously out of character if traps are known to exist).

Basically, yeah, if you let the player get away with this cheesy metagaming tactic, then it'll defeat all your hidden magical stuff.

... how's it metagaming? He's a caster (Detect Magic is a personal spell, and can only be made permanent with regards to oneself - he either cast both spells personally, got them from scrolls, or similar), seeking magic. If magic traps are known to exist, this is a perfectly in-character response. If hidden caches of magic loot are known to exist, this is a perfectly in-character response. If knowing whether an object is magic or not is important, this is a perfectly in-character response. Seriously - he's not using any info that's not fully in character (unless he has no/very few ranks in Knowelege(Aracana) or Spellcraft, anyway).

Don't put up with cheesiness. It'll ruin your campaign.

How is it cheesy? Once you get past the "magic" thing in the first place, how is it something that wouldn't work outside of the game mechanics? Is letting the party rogue conserve actions in searching for the good stuff/nastier traps "broken"?

 

[Aino]

Thanks all for the help!
@Jack Simth, the traps are really neat

 

[Pinotage]

I'd definitely make him (and the party) pay for it. They'll be taking 3-4 times as long to run through a dungeon. I'd have monsters start mustering their forces and assaulting the party in waves.

Basically, yeah, if you let the player get away with this cheesy metagaming tactic, then it'll defeat all your hidden magical stuff.

Don't put up with cheesiness. It'll ruin your campaign.

I agree with this. Otherwise, if all else fails, a good Dispel Magic will cure the problem!

Pinotage

 

[Dimensional]

Yea I'd require him to say he's using it, or at least set up his standard use pattern.

It's not that serious, I'd try to find a balance between it not being useful and it doing everything arcane sight does.

Jeremy