Natural weapons for PC races

[CapnZapp]

Okay, so what is needed for 5th edition to support heroes fighting with their natural weapons (NW)?

What I am envisioning is a fighter using his claws or horn or whatever NW instead of a weapon even at high levels.

This requires us to make assumptions on the availability of magic weapons, since no high level hero will choose to make half damage against most level-appropriate creatures.

Just for purposes of discussion, let's throw this out:

Level 6: +1 weapon
Level 12: +2 weapon
Level 18: +3 weapon

Please don't get on a tangent where you rail against these values. They're just examples to illustrate a point.

Okay, so what damage expressions do we aim for with the rules we haven't written yet?

Let's focus on four common "configurations": the sword and board fighter Abe, the greataxe fighter Brute, the no-weapon monk Cybil, and the two-weapon rogue Durran. They all have the same tail spike or bite attack or whatever NW.

Whether they use Str or Dex doesn't matter at this point. It is entirely reasonable to get a Str-only natural weapon and simply ask Durran to choose another race if they want to fight with natural weapons, or pick up a regular shortsword. It is entirely reasonable to get a Dex-only natural weapon and simply ask Brute to choose another race or pick up a regular greataxe.

Level 1
Abe: d8
Brute: d12
Cybil: d4
Durran: d6 - needs to be able to make NW attacks as a bonus action

My main point here is at this stage, most players are probably content their natural weapon is equal to other choices.

At this stage, we might get away with making the NW a d6 weapon IF we allow for options that "unlock" the weapon at later stages.

Level 6
Abe: d10 and counts as magical (comparable to a +1 Longsword)
Brute: 2d6 magical, and counts as a greatweapon (absolutely must be compatible with warrior feats)
Cybil: d6 (no need to spell out magical)
Durran: d8 magical

Level 12
Abe: d12 (comparable to a +2 Longsword)
Brute: 2d8
Cybil: 1d10 (the reason we're comparing to a "+1 foot" and not a "+2 foot" like the others is because regular monks are probably limited to two +2 attacks and two +0 attacks)
Durran: d10 (comparable to a +2 Shortsword)

Level 18
Abe: 2d6 (comparable to a +3 Longsword)
Brute: 2d10
Cybil: 2d6
Durran: 2d6 (comparable to a +3 Rapier)


To condense this down, we see that this doesn't really sprawl all over the place like I expected.

Level 1: d6 is probably fine
Level 6: we could probably get away with "d6 for everybody except d12 for people with the Greatweapon Fighting feat"
Level 12: we simply up the previous to "d10 for everybody except 2d8 for people with the Greatweapon Fighting feat"
Level 18: we simply up the previous to "2d6 for everybody except 2d10 for people with the Greatweapon Fighting feat"

It's not perfect, but it should be good enough for those players that really wish to use NWs. These players already realize they won't find "Flame Tongue Horns" or "Vorpal Bite", so they're probably already playing in a relatively low-magic campaign (or they have a generous DM that allows them to enchant their natural weapons). Either way, we're only gunning for transforming WotC's level of NW support of "abysmal" to "bearable".

A progression of level 1-11: d6, level 12-17: d10 and level 18+: 2d6 is of course bumpy and ungainly, so let's smooth that out shall we, by adding d8 at level 6.

 

[CapnZapp]

So, in conclusion, what's wrong with the NW of Unearthed Arcana is the lack of an automatic damage progression.

Starting at d6 isn't actually so horrible it can't stay, IF it gets automatically upgraded with character level (much like a cantrip):

Level 1: d6
Level 6: d8
Level 12: d10
Level 18: 2d6​

The Greatweapon Fighting feat is amended thusly (add this text to the end of the feat description):

If you have a natural weapon, its damage die is upgraded a number of steps decided by your character level.
Less than 6 levels: one step (a d6 becomes a d8)
6-11 levels: two steps (a d8 becomes a d12)
12 or more levels: three steps (a d10 becomes 2d8; 2d6 becomes 2d12)​

This concludes my analysis and suggested fix for the UA natural weapon debacle.

Zapp

 

[CapnZapp]

Example highlights:

At level 1, Abe the Fighter can fight with his claws instead of a longsword, and will have to accept d6 damage instead of d8.

At level 6, Brute the Fighter can fight with her horns instead of a greataxe, and gets to do magical d12 damage (instead of non-magical d12 damage or magical d12+1 damage). About the same on average. This assumes a NW that can be used with Str.

At level 12, Cybil the Monk can fight with her bite instead of hands and feet, and gets to do d10 damage instead of d8 damage (all magical). But loses out on some attacks with magical monk weaponry. I'd say this averages out to +0.5 per attack This assumes a NW that can be used with Dex.

At level 18, Durran the Rogue can fight with his tail spike instead of a rapier, and gets to do 2d6 magical damage instead of d8+3 magical damage. Average 7 and 7.5 respectively. This assumes a NW that can be used with Dex.

All in all, for a quick fix attempt that still achieves a smooth progression curve, nothing stands out as especially egregious balance-wise. What you think?

 

[jaelis]

I do think you have to address shields.

 

[CapnZapp]

I do think you have to address shields.

Okay.

In what way?

(What configuration feature of Abe the swordnboarder have I forgotten about?)

 

[jaelis]

It is Brute and Durran who are the obvious problem. It would seem they could equip themselves with a shield and gain +2 AC compared to a normal GWFer or TWFer.

Or from the other direction, Abe can pick up a shortsword and TWF.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

It is Brute and Durran who are the obvious problem. It would seem they could equip themselves with a shield and gain +2 AC compared to a normal GWFer or TWFer.

Or from the other direction, Abe can pick up a shortsword and TWF.

By RAW, you can't TWF with natural weapons, so Abe isn't an issue.

However Brute at least will definitely need addressing in the spirit of this thread. Maybe add a rider in to the rider on the greatweapon fighting feat.

Rather than granting a different progression and magical nature, it might be easier for natural weapons to just follow the Monk progression, and to simply introduce Amulets of natural Attacks or the equivalent. It looks like you're taking optimal magic item distribution as a given, so ensuring that a NW-fighting character gets one shouldn't be an issue.

It might also be worth addressing Fighting Styles: either adding one or more to support natural weapons, or just adjust the language of the existing ones to make sure natural weapons are included by them.

 

[Li Shenron]

So, in conclusion, what's wrong with the NW of Unearthed Arcana is the lack of an automatic damage progression.

Starting at d6 isn't actually so horrible it can't stay, IF it gets automatically upgraded with character level (much like a cantrip):

Level 1: d6
Level 6: d8
Level 12: d10
Level 18: 2d6​

The Greatweapon Fighting feat is amended thusly (add this text to the end of the feat description):

If you have a natural weapon, its damage die is upgraded a number of steps decided by your character level.
Less than 6 levels: one step (a d6 becomes a d8)
6-11 levels: two steps (a d8 becomes a d12)
12 or more levels: three steps (a d10 becomes 2d8; 2d6 becomes 2d12)​

This concludes my analysis and suggested fix for the UA natural weapon debacle.

Zapp

I don't think a damage progression is needed.

OTOH d6 is too small, it's comparable to a simple weapon, meaning that any martial character would be better off using a regular weapon instead of the natural weapon. It should be either d8 or d10 (as the versatile martial weapons). I would probably suggest d8 and the finesse property by default. So a character with martial weapon proficiency may still have some doubt between using the NW and a regular longsword IF he's a strength-based character (otherwise a dexterity-based character would probably better use the NW anyway), but the NW at least has the side benefit that it cannot be disarmed, lost or broken, and the character doesn't appeared armed (also doesn't require to draw/sheath, in case it comes up in some corner case).

Then there is no need for increasing the NW damage, just like base regular weapons always deal the same damage, as long as NW are treated as regular weapons for all purposes: you can make OAs with them, you can get them enchanted (e.g. with the Magic Weapon spell), and you can make weapon attacks with them (not unarmed attacks) so pretty much anything you can use with regular weapons you'd use with NW too.

Finally, as you say, you don't need to make any assumption on the availability of magical weapons: just make a deal with the DM that it will be same as the availability of magic items that boost natural weapons. So whenever the DM feels it's appropriate to shell out +2 flaming weapons, she'll also shell out magic items (rings, amulets...) that grant "+2 flaming" to natural weapons.

 

[jaelis]

By RAW, you can't TWF with natural weapons, so Abe isn't an issue.

I had the impression CZ wanted to allow this, but perhaps I misunderstood.

I agree that having magic items to boost natural weapons is a better solution than baking in a progression.

It might also be worth addressing Fighting Styles: either adding one or more to support natural weapons, or just adjust the language of the existing ones to make sure natural weapons are included by them.

Good point.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I had the impression CZ wanted to allow this, but perhaps I misunderstood.

No. Fair point. I'd forgotten the extent of Zapp's suggested homebrew there. If Durran can make multiple attacks with NW, or as a bonus action as per TWF, then they can use a shield in conjunction.