D&D 5E My 20th Level Rogue wants to use Stroke of Luck to tame a demonically possessed red dragon...

[Klaudius Rex]

Stroke of Luck is pretty good, but i don't think that a 20th level rogue would be able to use Stroke of Luck to tame a demonically possessed red dragon (by Graz'zt) in our epic finally boss fight this upcoming weekend.

He wants to use it sort of like an ability check akin to Handle Animal, which i would agree legitimately tames n animal, but this is a crazy red dragon that's going berserk over Neverwinter. Of course, Handle Animal is just the model for which he is trying convey what he would like to do, not necessarily use that exact skill.

Even so, regardless if it was Handle Animal or other Wisdom or Persuasion or Charisma check, it would only make his check a 20, which is a mildly tough DC, but not for an end game big boss. Furthermore, Stroke of Luck does not grant a natural 20, which is a critical success.

As DM, i'm giving my logic for ruling against his plans here on ENWorld mainly because i want validation, but also i want further input in case im missing something. Likewise, if you think my player has the better argument, please let me know what you think as well.

I'm willing to keep an open mind , but i just don't see it working. What do you think?

 

[Ancalagon]

The DC should be very, very high. Now if he already was a master at handle animal (high stat, expertise etc) then ... yeah... that could work. But if this isn't an area that he's great at... I don't see it.

... anyway, shouldn't he be bargaining with Grazt anyway?

 

[thethain]

TLR You cannot win via claiming an absurd skill check.


Skill checks cannot achieve the impossible. There is no auto-success on skill checks.

"I want to use an Insight check to see what his relationship with his father was when he was a teenager. "

OK, well you don't have any method of finding that out...

Similarly, attempting to "tame" a dragon possessed by a demon is the same as attempting to tame a person possessed by a demon. Its just not going to work unless you say Turn the unholy/protection from evil to release him then dominate person on the person. You are trying to "tame" two entities, each of which are probably smarter and have a stronger force of personality than the rogue.

 

[Klaudius Rex]

... anyway, shouldn't he be bargaining with Grazt anyway?

All deals with Graz'zt have turned sour over the course of the game. This is the final session, and there is no more working with Graz'zt.

It's do or die!

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Furthermore, Stroke of Luck does not grant a natural 20, which is a critical success.

If you have some sort of house rule that a natural 20 gives amazing results, then that's entirely on you, and we can't help you with that. A natural 20 is only a critical success on an attack roll. It doesn't even let you automatically pass a saving throw, these days.

There has never been any edition of D&D where rolling a 20 on a skill check was anything more than one point above rolling a 19.

Also, be sure to tell the player of this at the beginning of the session. Nothing ruins a dramatic, high-stakes moment any worse than miscommunication.

 

[Klaudius Rex]

If you have some sort of house rule that a natural 20 gives amazing results, then that's entirely on you, and we can't help you with that. A natural 20 is only a critical success on an attack roll. It doesn't even let you automatically pass a saving throw, these days.

There has never been any edition of D&D where rolling a 20 on a skill check was anything more than one point above rolling a 19.

Also, be sure to tell the player of this at the beginning of the session. Nothing ruins a dramatic, high-stakes moment any worse than miscommunication.

Good points all around....especially about explaining ahead of time.

 

[Klaudius Rex]

LEvel 20 stuff is really good, but players still just want to stretch it to be more!

 

[Nevvur]

A dragon is a ferocious, powerful, intelligent creature. It's not some dumb animal you can placate by cooing at it or tossing it a bit of meat. As a demon possessed, ferocious, powerful, intelligent creature, I suspect it would be even less receptive to parley.

Point being, Animal Handling is the wrong skill. Even if he used a more appropriate social skill, there's no rule stating you have to allow a chance of success for anything a player wants to try. There's plenty of precedent in official modules about certain NPCs being unmoved by persuasion, deception, or intimidation (usually only one social skill 'immunity' at a time though). And that's often in cases where the NPC is on the fence about cooperating with the PCs. If the NPC has already made up his mind, you don't need to offer the PCs a chance to change it. Just like in real life, some people are stubborn and refuse to listen, even in the face of reason and charm.

This is your BBEG, not some mere obstacle to be overcome by a single ability check. If I did include a social challenge in dealing with him, it may work to delay the fight, or grant an advantage in the otherwise inevitable final confrontation, but you don't get to talk your way out of the boss fight in my games.

 

[Klaudius Rex]

A dragon is a ferocious, powerful, intelligent creature. It's not some dumb animal you can placate by cooing at it or tossing it a bit of meat. As a demon possessed, ferocious, powerful, intelligent creature, I suspect it would be even less receptive to parley.

Point being, Animal Handling is the wrong skill. Even if he used a more appropriate social skill, there's no rule stating you have to allow a chance of success for anything a player wants to try. There's plenty of precedent in official modules about certain NPCs being unmoved by persuasion, deception, or intimidation (usually only one social skill 'immunity' at a time though). And that's often in cases where the NPC is on the fence about cooperating with the PCs. If the NPC has already made up his mind, you don't need to offer the PCs a chance to change it. Just like in real life, some people are stubborn and refuse to listen, even in the face of reason and charm.

This is your BBEG, not some mere obstacle to be overcome by a single ability check. If I did include a social challenge in dealing with him, it may work to delay the fight, or grant an advantage in the otherwise inevitable final confrontation, but you don't get to talk your way out of the boss fight in my games.

Fair enough.

Would you then, allow, say the 20th level wizard in the party to cast Wish to tame the ferocious demon possessed red dragon? Cause i suspect that's what they plan on doing if i rule against the rogue.

 

[Croesus]

Fair enough.

Would you then, allow, say the 20th level wizard in the party to cast Wish to tame the ferocious demon possessed red dragon? Cause i suspect that's what they plan on doing if i rule against the rogue.

I agree with Nevvur, this should be a persuasion check, or something similar. The problem, of course, is that the dragon is demon possessed, so is the rogue attempting to convince the demon or the dragon?

As for wish, I'd certainly allow a wish to both drive out the demon and allow the dragon to remember that it was possessed. I suspect most dragons would be mightily ticked off to have been treated as a demon's plaything, so that would create an opening for the rogue to use Stroke of Luck to convince the dragon to ally with the party, or at the very least, not attack the party.