Mutants & Masterminds 2E - Attack/Defense Trade-offs

[RigaMortus2]

Can someone explain this to me. I think I got the gist of it, but the books doesn't do a good job of explaing it very well...

Attack & Save Difficulty: You can trade-off attack bonus for the saving throw Difficulty Class modifier with an attack on a one-to-one basis. So a PL 10 hero could have a +8 attack bonus in order to have a +12 save DC modifier, for example, or a hero that has chosen to have a +15 attack bonus is limited to a +5 save DC modifier. This modification does not apply to powers that do not require attack rolls; they remain limited by the campaign’s normal PL limit on save DC modifiers. Strength is considered an “attack” for purposes of this trade-off, so lowering your attack bonus limit increases your Strength bonus limit.

If I trade-off -2 from my attack bonus, do I get +2 for ALL 3 saving throws, or just 1 saving throw (of my choosing)? Example:

I make a PL10 character. My Attack Bonus is normally limited to +10, and my Saving Throws are normally limited to +15 (campaign PL +5). I decide to take -2 off of my Attack Bonus, limiting it to +8. Do all of my saves now get to go up to +17 or just one of them?

When it says Strength is considered an “attack” for purposes of this trade-off, what exactly does that mean? That last sentence does not make sense. If Str is considered an "attack", and my attack bonus is considered an "attack", why would it increase my Str bonus limit? It just said it was considered an "attack" and when you take a minus to attack, you don't get to add a plus to another attack, you get to add a plus to a saving throw. Or am I not reading that last sentence right?

Any help on clearing this up would be great, the M&M forums are down atm...

 

[Ben Robbins]

There are two separate trade-offs, attack and defense. Reducing your attack lets you buy a higher rank for an attack power that requires a save (or vice versa). On the other hand a defense trade-off let's you reduce your defense to increase your toughness (or vice versa).

An attack trade-off applies to any kind of attack save. So if you buy a Fatigue attack with a Fort save, lowering your chance to hit with that Fatigue let's you buy a higher rank and incur a higher save DC.

The attack trade-off can be different for different attacks. So you might have +10 attack with a Blast 10, but because you have attack focus melee putting your melee attack to +14 be limited to only having enough Strength to do +6 damage.

Also note that the defense trade-off has no effect on your other saves limits (your Will, Fort or Reflex).

Make sense? It's actually pretty simple, but it can be confusing before you get it.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

One other point to remember about the attack trade-off is that it only applies to offensive powers that require an attack roll.

So going by the above example, a PL 10 hero takes a 2pt trade-off, decreasing his attack bonus by 2 and increasing the max save DC for his offensive powers by 2. What this means is he can now buy his Blast/Stun/Strike/etc up to rank 12. However, offensive powers that don't require an attack roll, such as Mental Blast or Area-effect attacks, are still restricted to rank 10, as they don't benefit from the attack trade-off becuase they don't require an attack roll to do their thing.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Let me see if I understand this right. A PL10 character...

If I take -2 off my Attack Bonus, can I do ALL of the following (or just 1 of the following):
1) Add +2 to my Str bonus (My Str could then be maxed at Str 34 +12)
2) Add +2 to my Blast power (My power could be maxed to Blast +12)

If I take -2 off my Defense Bonus, can I do ALL of the following (or just 1 of the following):
1) Add +2 to my Fort save (My Fort could then be maxed at +17)
2) Add +2 to my Ref save (My Ref could then be maxed at +17)
3) Add +2 to my Will save (My Will could then be maxed at +17)

Can you ever trade off your Toughness score, either making it higher or lower? (Not in front of my book atm, so I can't look it up).

 

[Jim Hague]

Let me see if I understand this right. A PL10 character...

If I take -2 off my Attack Bonus, can I do ALL of the following (or just 1 of the following):
1) Add +2 to my Str bonus (My Str could then be maxed at Str 34 +12)
2) Add +2 to my Blast power (My power could be maxed to Blast +12)

Correct, except that the cap for the save is increased; the save does not increase automatically, and must still be bought with points.

If I take -2 off my Defense Bonus, can I do ALL of the following (or just 1 of the following):
1) Add +2 to my Fort save (My Fort could then be maxed at +17)
2) Add +2 to my Ref save (My Ref could then be maxed at +17)
3) Add +2 to my Will save (My Will could then be maxed at +17)

Can you ever trade off your Toughness score, either making it higher or lower? (Not in front of my book atm, so I can't look it up).

Wrong. By taking a Defense Trade-Off, you increase the cap for your Toughness save, not Fortitude, Reflex or Will. Like above, decreasing Defense (to increase the Toughness cap) or Toughness (to increase the Defense cap) do not give you any bonuses, they only increase the cap.

Examples:

You trade -2 Toughness in a PL 10 game. Your Defense is then capped at +12. You must still spend the points to buy your Defense that high.

You trade -2 on your Attack. The PL cap for damage or save-provoking powers increases by +2. In a PL 10 campaign, this means you could have a +12 Blast/Strike/Whatever.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Yes, you can trade a lower toughness for a higher defense and you can trade a lower damage attack for a more accurate attack.

For example, if a PL 10 hero uses a blaster pistol (+5 damage) then he can have up to a +15 attack bonus with that pistol. (Incidentally, this means he can hit almost every other PL 10 hero by rolling 5, though it's unlikely most of the PL 10 heroes will feel it.)
If he picks up a rocket launcher (+10 damage) then one of three things has to happen, depending upon the GMs ruling. 1) His damage doesn't increase, maintaining the PL limits, though he still gains the explosion benefit. 2) His attack bonus with the rocket launcher drops to a +10 to maintain the PL limits. 3) The character is allowed to violate the PL limits as a special one-time action. Ruling 2 is what I have seen most of the time, though three can make for good drama (and usually requires a hero point expenditure to be allowed to happen).

I hope that was helpful.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Ok, so what do I lower if I want to increase my saves? Or is that not allowed w/ trade-offs?

 

[Insight]

Fort, Reflex, and Will saves cannot be improved beyond the PL limit by tradeoff.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Ok, I think I got it now. Thanks!

 

[Graf]

It's often described as an attack/defense trade off.

It really should be attack/attack defense/defense trade off.
Not that it wouldn't be confusing, but it would at least it easier to understand that you're just swapping the quality attack ability and the quality of defense ability.