monsters with epic feats

[Gotterdammerung]

Characters may begin taking epic feats at 21st level, provided they meet the prerequisites.

When advancing monsters, how does a DM decide when to allow monsters to have epic feats? Can monsters take epic feats for which they meet the prerequisites, or do they have to be "epic monsters?"

What if the feat has no real high-level prerequisites? Like the epic feats "damage reduction" or "blinding speed" which could be very potent in the hands of an advanced Fire Elemental, for example.

Since not all monsters include a Level Adjustment, it's difficult to figure out where they might cross the ECL 20 threshold and become eligible.

Also, if I use CR as the basis, I run into THIS problem:

a rakshasa NPC with thirteen sorceror levels is a CR 20 opponent, and any further character levels bump the CR into epic areas.

a rakshasa PC with 6 sorceror levels is an ECL 20 PC (7HD + 7LA +6), and thus with another level he'll be into the epic territory.


Does anyone have good guidelines? Is this detailed anyplace in a core book?

thanks,


-eric

 

[S'mon]

I would allow NPC monsters with both hd 21+ and CR 21+ to take Epic feats. As for monster PCs, ECL screws them over really badly anyway so letting them take Epiv feats the same time as the other PCs is only fair. If this seems wrong I'd suggest maybe reducing the ECL to whatever looks reasonable; eg a 4hd Ogre looks like ECL 5 or 6 to me, I think the official ECL is 8?

 

[Pinotage]

There is some confusion regarding this, but as far as I understand it from the 3.5e DMG, the moment a creature's HD + Class Levels exceeds 20, then it's elligable for epic feats. I also believe that a creature must have class levels to be epic, but I could be wrong on this.

Pinotage

 

[Gotterdammerung]

I would allow NPC monsters with both hd 21+ and CR 21+ to take Epic feats. As for monster PCs, ECL screws them over really badly anyway so letting them take Epiv feats the same time as the other PCs is only fair. If this seems wrong I'd suggest maybe reducing the ECL to whatever looks reasonable; eg a 4hd Ogre looks like ECL 5 or 6 to me, I think the official ECL is 8?

Thanks, I would definitely allow monster PC's to take epic feats once their ECL hit 21+ with the other characters. My problem with it is that you have two identical beings:

Rakshasa Sorc 7 (ECL21) and eligable for epic level feats as a PC
Rakshasa Sorc 7 (CR14) and NOT eligable for epic level feats as an NPC/monster.

which seems wonky.

-eric

 

[Jdvn1]

I also believe that a creature must have class levels to be epic, but I could be wrong on this.

I'd guess your'e right on the first part, but this part doesn't seem right. Like, all the creatures in the ELH have epic feats.

 

[S'mon]

Thanks, I would definitely allow monster PC's to take epic feats once their ECL hit 21+ with the other characters. My problem with it is that you have two identical beings:

Rakshasa Sorc 7 (ECL21) and eligable for epic level feats as a PC
Rakshasa Sorc 7 (CR14) and NOT eligable for epic level feats as an NPC/monster.

which seems wonky.

-eric

It is wonky - it's due to CR being a measure of Challenge vs the party, while ECL is (supposedly) a measure of utility of creature's abilities to the party. The problem is that if you let your NPC Rakshasa take Epic feats, it's _no longer CR 14_. Most ECLs are too high IMO, but that will vary by game, and furthermore their importance decreases over time - a PC Rakshasa/PC-class-1 is far far weaker than a 15th level ECL 0 PC, but a PC Rakshasa/PC-Class-16 may not be much weaker than a 30th level ECL 0 PC. They probably still are, though... WoTC seem to consistently overrate the utility of monster's magical abilities. For most campaigns IMO you could probably reduce the Rakshasa PC's ECL to 7 and it wouldn't overpower a regular PC.

 

[Pinotage]

I'd guess your'e right on the first part, but this part doesn't seem right. Like, all the creatures in the ELH have epic feats.

Yes, but creatures in the non-epic books that have more than 20 HD don't have epic feats, like dragons. I think S'mon is right in that it should really be CR based, but it's kinda screwy on the mechanics that way. The other option is to simply ignore epic until your characters reach epic levels and then apply the rules based on HD+Class Levels.

Pinotage

 

[Aust Diamondew]

DM's discretion with NPCs. With PCs use ECL.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Yes, but creatures in the non-epic books that have more than 20 HD don't have epic feats, like dragons.

That's because the ELH hadn't been written yet when they designed those entries, silly.

 

[Jdvn1]

Yes, but creatures in the non-epic books that have more than 20 HD don't have epic feats, like dragons.

A) Epic monsters don't have to take Epic feats.
2) The core books aren't supposed to use non-core material.
iii) My original point of non-classed monsters having Epic feats still stands.