Monks and Mage-Killing

[Thanee]

To save Artoomis from further deviation in his quest for a higher Spell Resistance, this thread is meant to continue the slightly off topic discussion...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Freedom of Movement is somewhat arguable in application to a Grapple, mind; I don't think it is near to being balanced to allow it to give you outright immunity to an entire class of attacks.

It's just a minor class of attacks, though.

And one, that often denies other entire classes of attacks (even multiple ones), don't forget that.

Would you allow a 4th level spell to make you utterly immune to an entire specific category of weapons?

That's not the same... unarmed attacks are still possible, just a sub-part of unarmed attacks (grappling) is not.

But yeah, the automatic success is harsh. Especially since it is only a 4th level spell.

The wizard wants to cast TT? Fine - so much for casting ANY other spells, and the Monk will be a better melee fighter than the Wizard. ... and a Wizard that goes TT on the first round when facing off against a monk is dead meat.

Wizards tend to be smart... casting TT before any other buffs is not going to happen.

And, of course, there are methods to shut it down (like imbue familiar with spell ability (dispel magic)), just in case.

Depends entirely on the encounter range - the basic assumption here is "a mage-killer monk and a wizard of any sort encounter each other unexpectedly; neither is ESPECIALLY prepared for that particular encounter, only having such measures operating already, as are regularly in effect". Or, a flying monk/shadowdancer at dusk or during the night, using Hide in Plain Sight. *shrug*

I'd assume that every high-level wizard is prepared for such an encounter at pretty much all times.

The Exodus is specifically crafted to produce fair fights, IOW, ones not stacked in favor of EITHER player from the get-go.

BTW, are AMFs allowed there? Guess not...

Outside of the Exodus, I would expect to be part of a PARTY, and would have possible magical support from other casters. Or, I wouldn't go the Vow of Poverty route, and would have the items of Antimagic.

But then not you are the Mage-Killer, but the party as a whole... the monk is just a little (and redundant to this task) part of it.

That's a huge assumption, and not a proven one IMO.

Well, take a look at the wizard spell list... then take a look at the monk's divination methods.

We'll assume, that both have items and so both can have the same benefit from those (altho it's likely, that the wizard will have more, since the monk needs items to boost his combat capabilities, wizards usually use up more of their resources for defense).

So, no, it's not a huge assumption, it's almost granted.

One other thing... Initiative is really a huge factor here (altho only, if the monk has an AMF, otherwise it's almost irrelevant, as he will not be able to prevent the wizard from casting otherwise and is not able to kill the wizard in one round usually, and once the wizard can act, it's over pretty much).

BTW, one thing I wondered about... when you are in a grapple... do touch attacks hit automatically? They should do so, or not?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Artoomis]

Thanks for starting this new thread.

Q. To kick things off, why do monks make good mage-killers, in general?
A. Good saves, SR, high speed and Stunning Fist - which uses a Fort Save, a soft underbelly for a mage, generally.

Q. What general weaknesses does a monk have vs. a mage?
A. Inability to fly. Inability to see invisibilty.

I see the major things a monk needs are:

Some ability to fly.
Some ability to see invisible (True Seeing would be even best).

In general, monks can be defensive powerhouses, giving them enough time to get to and neutralize the enemy mage.

Note that I am NOT talking about one-on-one confrontations - that's just silly, for the Mage will usually win a one-on-one confrontation if given half a chance with any reasonable spell selection.

My idea for a monk is to figure out how to survive a lost initiative and then crush the mage like an over-ripe melon.

 

[two]

Regarding very odd assumptions --

I just want to make it clear that PAX when squaring off a Wiz20 vs. a Monk20 is not playing by core rules (which is fine, but it sure makes for a confusing comparison when the rules of the game shift under one's feet) and also makes some Monk-friendly assumptions:

1) Freedom of Movement does not stop grappling.
2) A Monk either has a round to prepare a Lion's Charge spell, or the monk has the pounce ability from unnamed race (in which case it's not really a Monk20, rather I suspect a Race X Monk18 or whatever, not that it matters a bunch) or the Monk has an epic? feat.
3) The Monk in question can activate some sort of anti-magic as a free action.
4) The Monk wins initiative.
5) The two are close enough that the Monk can close with a charge, and there is straight-line access.
6) The Wizard even when in the anti-magic field that the monk somehow creates with a free action, will be pinned/stuck/not able to move and quickly squelched.

That about sums it up. I'm sure I've missed a few additonal assumptions -- I'm not even including a Wiz20's contingency or anything like that, which is too easy ("when an enemy gets within 50 feet teleport to La-La land," etc.)

Others can, of course, add to the list for fun and no profit, or not.

 

[Thanee]

Just want to restate, that without access to an Antimagic Field, the monk has almost no chance to stop a wizard. Simple tricks like grappling might do it at moderate levels, but not at high levels anymore.

A monk would (thanks to good defense) probably be able to delay a wizard by keeping him busy, but that's about all he can hope for, unless he gets some serious help.

With some spell combinations (which I would expect to see a lot with high level wizards), single assailants are often disabled in a single round.

And I still am of the opinion, that to kill a high level spellcaster you need to be a spellcaster yourself (cleric probably being the best choise vs. wizard).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Artoomis]

Wile I do not really disagree with you , Thanee, what is a wizard really afraid of at higher levels? Answer - getting stuck in direct melee combat.

Many wizards have great magical protections, but it can get tricky against a melee opponent - especially if they are not willing to run at the first sign of trouble (it's hard to win when you run).

Mind you, a wizard with nothing to worry about except an anticipated attack by a monk will pretty much always win.

My idea is that in a group, a monk can be a mage-killer. If they don't kill the mage outright, they can force the mage to defend themselves from him, opening up the mage to magical assault.

Could the mage teleport away? Probably, if not stunned, but that's always true.

 

[Nail]

Has there been a (3.5e) thread posted like: "Spells that high level wizards should have up ALL THE TIME"? (I've searched, couldn't find one.) If not, it seems that such a list would be mighty long, given what all the pro-wizard posters have said.

I've not played a high level (15 - 20th) level wizard in a continuing D&D game (as opposed to a one shot or arena).......but surely such wizards are not constantly walking around with a dozen-odd spells cast on themselves? The statement: "Any intelligent wizard would have ....." seems stretched a bit thin, especially in this thread.

Don't get me wrong - a Wiz 20 would smoosh a Mnk 20 most of the time - but I wonder about the "In a Real Game"-ness of it all.

 

[Thanee]

Nah, not up all the time.

But some standard spells should be prepared all the time.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

My idea is that in a group, a monk can be a mage-killer. If they don't kill the mage outright, they can force the mage to defend themselves from him, opening up the mage to magical assault.

Could the mage teleport away? Probably, if not stunned, but that's always true.

Not, if you hit him with dimensional anchor first.

I actually have some experience with mage-killing, as my first D&D3E character (played from 1st to 19th level) was pretty good at that.

She was an elven rogue/wizard/arcane trickster (archer) with HUGE initiative bonus (usually somewhere in the teens), a quite nasty damage output (buffed) and a very good spell selection. She could use greater scrying (mind blank wasn't universally used back then ) and teleport (without error later) to follow a fleeing mage within 2 rounds (if he was fast enough to not get dimensional anchored immediately, there were usually plenty of those prepared (and there's always limited wish otherwise - I think I used this spell once or twice per evening ), some even transferred to the familiar for two immediate chances to nail the mage down (until he can dispel it)).

As a spellcaster she has the means to counteract standard anti-mage-killing tactics. A monk simply lacks these. That's the problem with the monk and mage-killing.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pax]

Wizards tend to be smart... casting TT before any other buffs is not going to happen.

My point was, the wizard would be throwing away the option to cast offensive spells.

I'd assume that every high-level wizard is prepared for such an encounter at pretty much all times.

Has appropriate spells prepared,yes. Has them active all the time ... not hardly. For example, S.W.A.T. members have, and when appropriate use, full body armor. But they don't walk around wearing them 24/7.

BTW, are AMFs allowed there? Guess not...

Yes, they are - but to make them fair to spellcasters, the duration is only one round per level, wether form an item or cast directly.

But then not you are the Mage-Killer, but the party as a whole... the monk is just a little (and redundant to this task) part of it.

Outside an arena, the presumption is that any given player character is part of a GROUP of adventurers who mutually support each other.

BTW, one thing I wondered about... when you are in a grapple... do touch attacks hit automatically? They should do so, or not?

Bye
Thanee

Not. The glowing part of the hand that would deliver it isn't neccessarily in contact with your opponent. 'sides, if they did - then the Monk would only have to specialise in grappling, and get some sort of large supply of touch attacks. Several high-caster-level Chill Touch spells in a Ring of Spell Storing, perhaps.

I just want to make it clear that PAX when squaring off a Wiz20 vs. a Monk20 is not playing by core rules (which is fine, but it sure makes for a confusing comparison when the rules of the game shift under one's feet) and also makes some Monk-friendly assumptions:

The rules of the Exodus are not friendly to any one class over another, except as they promote a fair and balanced (and fun for both sides) encounter.

1) Freedom of Movement does not stop grappling.

Rather, does not automatically stop it. A CL20 freedom of movement is worth a +10 bonus for resisting or escaping grapples; CL30 would be good for a +15 bonus. That's no small benefit, there.

2) A Monk either has a round to prepare a Lion's Charge spell, or the monk has the pounce ability from unnamed race (in which case it's not really a Monk20, rather I suspect a Race X Monk18 or whatever, not that it matters a bunch) or the Monk has an epic? feat.

The Exodus is a 25th level arena. And the standard is, both sides get 2 rounds to prepare - and ONLY two rounds. Spells with a duration measured in units smaller than 1 day cannot be precast, except by the Persistent Spell metamagic, wether they originate from the character or from an item.

3) The Monk in question can activate some sort of anti-magic as a free action.

At epic levels, this is strictly by-the-published-rules, and not a house rule.

4) The Monk wins initiative.

I have never said this is not a key factor.

5) The two are close enough that the Monk can close with a charge, and there is straight-line access.

Drunken Master levels allow non-straight-line charges - and it only takes 2 levels of that class. And a high-level monk can move a LOOOOOOOOOONG way as part of a charge. A human Monk(18)/Drunken Master(2)/Reaping Mauler(5) would have a movement rate of 90', which meanshis charge includes 180' of movement, in a zig-zag patternif need be.

6) The Wizard even when in the anti-magic field that the monk somehow creates with a free action, will be pinned/stuck/not able to move and quickly squelched.

Yes, there's an "if" involved. I've never said the Wizard had no chance, just that the Monk did have a good chance.

The Dire Charge feat, and in the Exodus, a vanilla rune of antimagic field (2/day). Not in the Exodus, a bagful of one-shot runes of quickened antimagic field. The 2/day rune would cost (8x25x800x2=) 320,000gp; the one-shot runes would cost only (12x23x50=) 13,800gp each, but would not be self-renewing.

So, if the Monk is siccessfully able to get up to the Wizard and grapple him, with the AMF active ... yes, the wizard is indeed dead meat, make no bones about it.

That about sums it up. I'm sure I've missed a few additonal assumptions -- I'm not even including a Wiz20's contingency or anything like that, which is too easy ("when an enemy gets within 50 feet teleport to La-La land," etc.)

In the exodus, you cannot teleport out of the arena; if you somehow managed to do so, you would forfeit the match - which is the same as the monk winning. *shrug*

Outside of the exodus: unless your party's sole and only goal is to capture or eliminate the wizard in question, having him teleport away means having him flee, which counts as "defeating" him for that encounter. Thanks for the free XP.