D&D 5E Mirror Image vs. Hold Person (and other non-targeting attacks)

[Dax Doomslayer]

Hi Folks,
I was wondering what people think about how Mirror Image would affect spells that don't require a 'to hit' roll or even area effect spells (i.e. Fireball). Would it still protect the caster? I'm just curious what people do with this. Mirror Image indicates each time a creature is targeted with an attack which Hold Person would be but there is no 'to hit' roll. Also, would a Hold Person eliminate an image as it 'ignores all other damage and effects'. Thanks!

 

[jaelis]

An attack is something involving an attack roll; neither hold person nor fireball are attacks. So mirror image would not affect them or protect you from them.

 

[Blue]

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Mirror Image only matters "Each time a creature targets you with an attack...".

All attacks, be they a weapon attack or a spell attack, is the attacker making a roll vs. your AC. Saves are not attacks.

As such, by RAW, any spell that requires a save instead of an attack does not interact with Mirror Image. This includes Fireball and Hold Person. That's one fo the divisions of Spell Attacks vs. Saves - is the attacker trying to target you precisely, or are you trying to resist an effect.

 

[OB1]

I'm going to disagree with the above. Hold Person targets a creature. The illusory duplicate of the wizard is not a creature. The only way to resolve whether you choose the real wizard is through the mechanic listed on Mirror Image, so I would use that to resolve. Note this would also mean that a friendly caster trying to cure wounds, enlarge or haste would have the same problem. AOE spells of course ignore this, since the duplicates and the real wizard would all be within the AOE.

 

[Blue]

I'm going to disagree with the above. Hold Person targets a creature.

True but irrelevant. Mirror image doesn't come into affect when you target a creature, it comes into play when you target a creature with an attack. That is explicitly called out in the description of the Mirror Image spell.

Many spells are Spell Attacks. They require a roll to hit. Hold Person is not one of them - it requires a save.

Note this would also mean that a friendly caster trying to cure wounds, enlarge or haste would have the same problem.

Also not attacks, and therefore do not interact with Mirror Image by RAW.

 

[OB1]

True but irrelevant. Mirror image doesn't come into affect when you target a creature, it comes into play when you target a creature with an attack. That is explicitly called out in the description of the Mirror Image spell.

Many spells are Spell Attacks. They require a roll to hit. Hold Person is not one of them - it requires a save.


Also not attacks, and therefore do not interact with Mirror Image by RAW.

Targeting with an attack is a specific case of mirror image, but you are ignoring the general rule that comes before it as well as the general rule within Hold Person. Just because the Mirror Image spell tells you specifically what happens when someone makes an attack doesn't mean that the spell doesn't do anything in other cirucmstances. You go back to the general rule for those other rulings.

Mirror Image - Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends.... it is impossible to track which image is real.

Hold Person - Choose a humanoid that you can see within range.

For Hold Person to work, you must choose 1 humanoid within range. Mirror Image creates three duplicates that make it impossible to tell which is the real one. In order for the Hold Person to affect the Mirror Imaged person, you must guess the correct image to cast the spell on (unless you have an ability that can see through the mirror image). Since this isn't specifically covered by the Mirror Image spell, you could either use the same mechanic it gives for attacking or pick another way to resolve whether the Hold Person caster picked the correct image. Of course, the DM could also rule that the caster of Hold Person is able to sense which of the duplicates is real somehow, and it would be a valid ruling, and should apply to all similar cases.

Let's take another example. If a caster used Major Image to create a duplicate of herself 30 feet away, and the enemy cast Hold Person, how would you resolve that? If the illusory duplicate were targeted, would the caster be able to auto sense that she was trying to Hold Person against an illusion, and then retarget to the other? Or would the spell fizzle because she choose a non humanoid as a target?

 

[Blue]

Targeting with an attack is a specific case of mirror image, but you are ignoring the general rule that comes before it as well as the general rule within Hold Person.Just because the Mirror Image spell tells you specifically what happens when someone makes an attack doesn't mean that the spell doesn't do anything in other cirucmstances. You go back to the general rule for those other rulings.

Actually, it absolutely does.

Mirror Image specifically triggers "Each time a creature targets you with an attack..." (PHB pg 260). NOT just targeted. Any discussion needs to deal with both Targeted and Attack.

Luckily, those are clearly defined as general rules for Spells, on page 205. Some spells use saving throws to resist. And some spells are attacks that involved an attack roll.

Hold Person falls into the first of those categories - the caster does not attack with it, the target resists. There's no need to "pick the target from the image".

If you disagree, please provide citations that spells without attack rolls are attacks - that will then fit the Mirror Image trigger and pull the rug out from under what I'm saying.

An appeal to logic is fine for your table and rulings - I agree that the differentiation about what is an attack and what isn't has some clear gaps between common English usage and 5e game terms. But that doesn't change what the rules say.

 

[jaelis]

AFAIK, the rules don't specify what happens when you try to cast a spell on an ineligible target. So for the major illusion idea, I think its up to the DM whether the caster senses that the target is an illusion prior to casting, whether the spell fails but the slot is retained, or the spell fails and the slot is used up.

Mirror image, though, gets into a trickier question about how well an eligible target needs to be distinguished. The creature and its images all share the same space, so it isn't clear that you need to pick between them for a non-attack spell. If you rule that you do require that fine of control, then I guess you might need to be prepared for a creative player to do something like throw a blanket over their head and claim they can't be targeted by a spell that requires them to be seen.

 

[OB1]

Actually, it absolutely does.

Mirror Image specifically triggers "Each time a creature targets you with an attack..." (PHB pg 260). NOT just targeted. Any discussion needs to deal with both Targeted and Attack.

Luckily, those are clearly defined as general rules for Spells, on page 205. Some spells use saving throws to resist. And some spells are attacks that involved an attack roll.

Hold Person falls into the first of those categories - the caster does not attack with it, the target resists. There's no need to "pick the target from the image".

If you disagree, please provide citations that spells without attack rolls are attacks - that will then fit the Mirror Image trigger and pull the rug out from under what I'm saying.

An appeal to logic is fine for your table and rulings - I agree that the differentiation about what is an attack and what isn't has some clear gaps between common English usage and 5e game terms. But that doesn't change what the rules say.

I'm not arguing that spells without attack rolls are attacks. The spell description clearly describes how to resolve an attack against someone who cast mirror image. Please note that my use of caps below isn't to shout, but to emphasize the key words.

Hold Person clearly states that you TARGET a humanoid you can SEE within range. With mirror image cast, it is "impossible to track which image is real." You have to choose which image to TARGET with your hold person spell, which is done by SIGHT. If you do not TARGET the actual caster, the spell fails. So the DM must rule on whether the caster has picked the real caster as the TARGET. The Mirror image spell doesn't describe how to resolve that, so it's up to the DM.

The fact that the spell description explains what to do in the SPECIFIC instance of an ATTACK against the caster does not override the other GENERAL rules for choosing a TARGET in the Hold Person spell description and the inability for others to distinguish which of the casters the opponent sees is the actual caster.

The bottom line is that casting Hold Person against a humanoid with Mirror Image active will require a DM ruling, it is not explicit within the rules. And that's what 5e is all about!

 

[5ekyu]

EDIT - And simultaneous posting strikes again!!!

Blue - Consider the case of the duplicate illusion created by Cleric Trickery Duplicity. if one cast a hold person while seeing the illusion duplicate and the actual subject was unseen what would you rule the result to be then? What if Both the duplicate and the original were seen but 15' apart with no clear idea which was the real one? Would you have the hold person "auto-find" the "real boy" each time or attempt to affect the illusion and fail or make the caster choose which one to go after?

What if instead of illusion duplicates it was two characters, one looking like the other and the caster needed to catch one of them but did not know visually which was the right one? In that case, they would have to pick a target (based off best info and/or skill info) and hoe they got the right one, right?

What if hold person were being cast at a non-humanoid that looked like a humanoid by illusion?

The key part, I BELIEVE, of the counter-argument is that "Choose a humanoid..." is a fallible stage and that having multiple identical images creates the exact same (or extremely close) circumstances as any of the above cases and that there is NOTHING in the Mirror image spell text that removes the "Choose a humanoid" requirement from Hold Person.

I BELIEVE to that point of view (and a nod to RAW) its **obvious** by Mirror Image what happens when targeted by an attack, but that there is nothing in Mirror Image that makes the impact of "illusory duplicates" of your enemies play any differently for Hold person v Mirror image than it would for Hold Person v Invoke Duplicity or any number of other ways one can have Illusory duplicates - and so they should be handled the same - be it auto-find the desired target.

Basically if you have multiple targets which all appear to be "the humanoid you want" and you are required to "Choose a humanoid that you can see within range" does a Gm resolve that **choice** the same or differently based on how the illusions are created, what they really are etc.

personally, i believe the RAI matches what you see... that mirror image is intended to only be applied at all against targeted spells and that "Choose a humanoid that you can see within range" gets close enough to work when choosing the ""covey of mages" from Mirror image.


But i can see a (solid) RAW argument just based off the write-up of the mirror image and hold person that could see the other way as equally valid as it focuses on the restriction in hold person "Choose a humanoid..." as the key requirement still needing to be made given that in other cases where there are illusory duplicates or indistinguishable foes the "Choose a humanoid..." would become a noticeable and significant problem.

i would not myself be surprised if there was not a sage question already answered about this.