Marionnen's Musings: Touch AC and Why it's Irrelevant

[airwalkrr]

Today in my blog I tackle Touch AC, a mechanic I have longed believed to be superfluous. Full text below.

When 3rd edition of D&D came out they introduced a new concept to AC, the Touch Armor Class (as well as the Flat-Footed Armor Class). The idea was that it should be simpler to strike someone if you do not care about getting through full plate or chain mail and just want to connect with that individual bodily. This is all perfectly fair and logical. It just has one problem. It is completely unnecessary. Why? Well there is already a perfectly good mechanic in the game for one's ability to get out of the way of something dangerous. It's called the Reflex save, and if you were to evaluate all the characters you have ever played, I think you would find that if you added 10 to the value of your Reflex save, it would fairly closely match your character's touch AC. So let's get rid of that entry on the Character Sheet for Touch AC and save a little space. (We can get rid of Flat-Footed AC too, which I'll discuss below.)

Now we have to deal with the situations in 3.5 in which Touch AC is required and convert them to Reflex saves. This is actually fairly simple. The situations in which Touch AC are required are very few: 1) initiating a grapple, 2) making a trip attack, 3) touch spells. If I've missed anything, forgive me, but I think it is sufficient to say that if there are any other examples left they are marginal. Grapple and trip attacks are both easy to handle. The attacking character makes an attack roll opposed by the opponent's Reflex save; high roll wins (in case of ties, highest bonus wins the tie, as is the case for all opposed checks in 3.5). With touch spells, this is even easier. The target of the spell makes a Reflex save against the spell with a DC appropriate for the spell level in question. Viola! We've just eliminated an unnecessary part of the character sheet.

I mentioned Flat-Footed AC too. This really isn't necessary either. 4th edition acknowledged (rightly I think) that you don't need to have several values for Armor Class on your character sheet to cover every situation you could possibly think of. Realism is nice for those who like it. But I want a simpler game with a simpler character sheet. So in 4e they introduced the idea of Advantage. Whenever your character has Advantage, you gain a +2 on your roll. I like that idea. It's simple and easy to remember. So whenever your character is Flat-Footed, an attacker gets a +2 to hit you.

So now we only need one entry for Armor Class on our character sheet and don't need to worry about whether or not bonuses from one source or another apply to Touch AC or Flat-Footed AC (something that can be confusing to a new player or an old player). I have other ideas to cut down the size of the character sheet as well. Stay tuned.

 

[Belzbet]

If you want simpler than do it to it... But I would disagree that touch AC and reflex are usually the same if you add 10 to your reflex. For some creatures the only defense that contributes to AC is their natural armor. Take that away and they are easier than stones to hit (but their reflex may be quite high). Maybe at lower levels this is a close approximation but the constant increase to saves is going to outgrow the non constant (item based) increase to AC. Look at creatures with like 10 or 15 CR. Also look at outsiders, animals and magical beasts. Most of their AC is from natural armor and all of the creature types above get GOOD REF. So, most of the time outsiders, animals and magical beasts ref + 10 is significantly better than their touch AC. look at most demons, devils and dinosaurs.

 

[Jacob Marley]

I like where you are going with these blogs, [MENTION=12460]airwalkrr[/MENTION]. Your thoughts on these issues are largely in line with my thinking. Keep up the good work!

 

[Greenfield]

Your premise is in error. Reflex Save goes up with levels. Touch AC doesn't.

And for classes like the Rogue, 10 plus his Reflex Save may very well top his regular AC after a while.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Your premise is in error. Reflex Save goes up with levels. Touch AC doesn't.

And for classes like the Rogue, 10 plus his Reflex Save may very well top his regular AC after a while.

Agreed, it could get kind of whacky - a mature adult red dragon (size Huge) would then have a Touch AC of 24 (10 plus its Reflex save of +14) vs an actual Touch AC of 8.

My problem is that heavy armor or large sized creatures should be easier to hit, but harder to damage. Sorry, that goblin short sword is going to have an easier time damaging a rogue in leather than damaging a paladin in plate. Maybe the goblin lands blows on the heavy armor, but they're ineffectual unless placed just right. (But, that's another thread...)

 

[Sunseeker]

Your premise is in error. Reflex Save goes up with levels. Touch AC doesn't.

And for classes like the Rogue, 10 plus his Reflex Save may very well top his regular AC after a while.

Well, it can, depending on what elements a character gains through their class or items as they level. Dodge bonuses for example.

However, that's also a problem, if touch never goes up, then the person gets continually easier to hit.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Touch attacks, outside of shocking grasp and the like, never made much sense to me. You're trying to touch the person inside the armor, not the armor, so your entire ac should count.

 

[Greenfield]

Touch AC can go up with certain items, such as a Deflection ring, or items that grant Dodge, Divine, Insight, Luck or Profane bonuses. These tend to be pricier than other AC bonus items, specifically because they affect normal AC and touch AC. The fact is I can stack those pretty high.

Items that grant Reflex Save bonuses are fewer, and because of that there are fewer ways to stack them.

(I'm still trying to figure out why you can react to an "instantaneous" effect like Lightning, or how you can dodge a Fireball that's going off all around you, and is also instantaneous. And why can you do it while flat footed?)

As for "touch the person inside the armor", it depends on the attack I suppose.

If my Wiz' is throwing a Disintegrate spell, a ranged touch is called for. Then they get a Fortitude save. Do I have to thread the needle with that attack, slip it between the plates of the target's maille?

What about Ray of Enfeeblement? Should that spell be blocked by armor?

I can see your argument for direct damage spells such as Scorching Ray, but it starts to break down when you have to decide whether it applies based on armor material v attack type: Electrical effects can bypass metal armor, but not leather? And cold effects can bypass what, chain but not hide? It gets real confusing real fast.

If you're talking "line of effect", why would heavy plate block it any better than a lighter, full coverage armor? Or why would chain (which is nothing but holes) stop spells as well as scale, which covers completely?

 

[delericho]

The various different ACs are an area where the 3e rules are actually really quite clever and elegant in theory, but are pretty horrible as soon as they hit practice. It's almost as if they designed the game with one eye on an eventual video game and/or electronic character manager - a computer eats this sort of stuff up, where a human just finds it to be a pain.

In theory, I agree with the OP about replacing "flat-footed" with "combat advantage" and giving a flat bonus, and also with replacing "touch AC" with something. I just don't think that a Reflex save is really the thing to go for - the key problem being that a save rises with level, where touch AC does not.

...

Actually, there is something there... a spell requiring a touch attack becomes more likely to hit as level increases (the Wizard's BAB goes up while the target's AC does not, and the target is also more likely to be larger and so have a poor touch AC). Conversely, a spell requiring a save becomes less likely to have its full effect (because Reflex save goes up with level, where the save DC is mostly static once spells of that level have been gained).

(And, yes, there are feats and items that can change both of the above, but they're both fairly rare and fairly expensive.)

Meanwhile, some spells get significantly better with caster level (fireball gains 1d6 per level, of course), where some others do not (the inflict wounds spells gain a palty +1 damage per level).

So, then, if they're smart, the designers have recognised this, and tied the two together - spells that require a touch attack increase in potency only slowly with level, while those requiring a save increase rapidly, so the higher level Wizard gets the interesting choice: reliably do lower damage, or go for a riskier shot at higher damage.

But... I wonder whether they actually recognised this...?

 

[S'mon]

Touch attacks is one area where the 4e Reflex Defense works much better than 3e Touch AC.
OTOH, when you're fireballing 20 mooks, 3e Reflex saves work far better than 4e's 20 attack rolls vs Reflex Defense - in 4e I have a hell of a time trying to get players to roll damage before they do the attack rolls, whereas in 3e I as GM roll the saves and it goes about ten times faster.