Magical Returning Weapons

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Everyone,

I was just wondering how you would adjudicate the following scenario:

A creature (A) throws a magical +1 returning throwing axe (10ft. range increment) at a target (B) and misses. The would be target (B) then looks at the offending weapon and picks it up thinking "hey this looks nice". At the start of the original thrower's next turn, will the returning weapon return to him (A) or will the weapon's returning ability be nullified? If it does try to return, what chance has (B) of holding on to it to stop it from returning?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Dross]

I would say that the axe hasn't fallen to the ground, but is still in the air moving aorund/back to the thrower (at least from my reading of the SRD)

If B does manage to get hold of the axe, an opposed STR check maybe (using the "+" as it's bonus) to stop the weapon flying back to it's owner.

But i'd be disinclined to allow someone to be able to grab such a weapon without readying and a net or some other way to catch said axe. and maybe not even then. :\

 

[Infiniti2000]

A creature (A) throws a magical +1 returning throwing axe (10ft. range increment) at a target (B) and misses. The would be target (B) then looks at the offending weapon and picks it up thinking "hey this looks nice".

Picks it up from where? The weapon is currently flying "through the air." If you want to allow someone to pick up ranged weapons on their flights, you'll have to decide what to do when target (B) instead readies an action to grab the weapon before it hits him (or an arrow, etc.). Basically, just don't allow it or create some really onerous houserule to allow it, making it not worth it.

 

[Deset Gled]

Picks it up from where? The weapon is currently flying "through the air." If you want to allow someone to pick up ranged weapons on their flights, you'll have to decide what to do when target (B) instead readies an action to grab the weapon before it hits him (or an arrow, etc.). Basically, just don't allow it or create some really onerous houserule to allow it, making it not worth it.

There are a lot of ways this senario is possible. First, the weapon flies back to the original thrower just before the start of the thrower's next turn, so it will be lying around somewhere for at least a round. That's plenty of time for someone else to pick it up. Second, there was the Snatch Arrow feat in 3.0 (dunno if it's been reprinted or not) that gave a character the ability to no only catch a weapon thrown at them, but also throw it back at the same time (which creates an entirely new level of weirdness).

This is a kind of rough question that (IMO) is due to bad mechanics of the weapon ability. The ability, as written, has the weapon physically moving, but does not account for any case in which the weapon would be unable to do so. You run into the same problem if a wall was created (for example, by Wall of Stone) between the weapon and the thrower, and there is no path for the weapon to get back.

If I was trying to adjucate this from a RAW standpoint, I would probably default to the Telekinesis spell (using the weapon's creator's stats), as that's the spell used in creating the weapon. If I was trying to DM it, I would just change the description to say the weapon teleports back to the thrower instead, which would stop the problem entirely.


For reference:

Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).
Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinesis; Price +1 bonus.

 

[Infiniti2000]

First, the weapon flies back to the original thrower just before the start of the thrower's next turn, so it will be lying around somewhere for at least a round. That's plenty of time for someone else to pick it up.

No, it's not lying around anywhere. It's flying through the air. It does not fall to the ground, then jump back up and continue flying next round just before your turn.

Where in the air it is located is open for interpretation.

 

[IndyPendant]

Infiniti, your response sort of dodges the question. Here are two perfectly reasonable, perfectly valid scenarios for you. What happens in each one?

1) Thrower launches Returning weapon at Target, misses. Target is standing 10' in front of a stone wall. Weapon strikes wall, falls to the ground 10' from Target. Target, on his action, moves to Weapon and picks it up. Does Weapon then return to Thrower on Thrower's turn?

2) Thrower launches Returning weapon at Target, hits. Wizard then casts a Stone Wall spell, which completely fills the corrider in between Thrower and Target, floor to ceiling and wall to wall. Target ignores Weapon completely and does something else on his turn. Does Weapon still Return to Thrower on Thrower's turn? How?

I am curious to see what people think should happen as well.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Infiniti, your response sort of dodges the question.

I'm not dodging the question, I'm staying on the topic raised by the OP.

Here are two perfectly reasonable, perfectly valid scenarios for you. What happens in each one?

1. If the target is in front of the wall, then the wall doesn't interfere. I assume therefore you mean behind the wall (with respective to the thrower). That actually has a different problem than what you ask about. Can you even throw the weapon at someone who has total cover? Not technically: "You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover." Therefore, you'd have to treat the attack as an attack on the wall, and the weapon flies through the air on its way back to the thrower. It never falls to the ground, however, in any circumstance.

2. How far the weapon can travel to get back to the original position is not defined. That said, it's not explicitly limited, so I would have the axe keep moving until it found a way to its original position. Only in the case that it had no way out (forcecage for instance) would I say it could not make it back. But, even in that case, it may not fall to the ground. The thrower didn't catch it, but neither did the weapon fulfill its condition of returning for the "falling to the ground clause" to take effect. Despite that, I would still likely rule that it falls to the ground if the weapon cannot return.

 

[IndyPendant]

Ah, I understand now. The OP and I both share an assumption about the Returning property that is different from your own assumption. We assume it acts just like a normal thrown weapon--until the Thrower's turn, where it would suddenly 'rise up' and zip back to the Thrower, arriving at the start of his turn. You assume that the weapon is in constant motion, kind of like a boomerang--once it reaches the end of its throw, wherever that happens to be, it immediately begins to return to the Thrower, timing that return to arrive at the moment the Thrower's turn begins.

Neither assumption is actually spelled out by RAW, and either can be argued, but now that I've figured out your method, I like it better than mine. Easier to adjudicate, consistent with the concept, and allows fewer holes. It's probably how I'll use it myself if it ever comes up in my campaigns. Thanks!

--Now, what happens if a monk catches said Throwing Weapon via the Snatch Arrows feat? --How about if he throws that weapon back at the Thrower via that same feat? : )

 

[Infiniti2000]

You're welcome, IndyPendant. As additional incentive, the idea that the returning weapon falls to the ground makes it less than useless in many cases, like around a lava/acid/etc. pit, way up high in the air, on a boat, or similar cases. IMO, those are precisely the cases where you would WANT the returning property.

--Now, what happens if a monk catches said Throwing Weapon via the Snatch Arrows feat? --How about if he throws that weapon back at the Thrower via that same feat?

That's undefined as far as I see it, but I offer three suggestions. I'm not sure which one I like the best.

1. Require a strength check (perhaps DC 15 + total enhancement bonus on the weapon) to maintain a grip on the weapon and keep it from returning. If successful, you cannot throw it back immediately because you are fighting with the weapon.

2. The weapon cannot be snatched. The returning property overrides the feat.

3. Automatic. You snatch it and you become the 'owner'. You can immediately toss the weapon as pointed out in the feat.

Quite honestly, both snatch arrows and returning are uncommon enough to make me consider #1 the best option. I'd hate to 'nerf' either the feat or the property in lieu of the other.