Magical reagents for item creation

[Frostmarrow]

In Neverwinter Nights item creation works differently from D&D. Instead of having a feat and paying gold you collect magical reagents from monsters you slay and by combining you get different results from different recipes. For example the knuckle of a skeleton, the belly of a fire beetle and the eye of a rakshasa might create a pair of bracers of armor. You get the idea.

In my group we don't use XP as written anymore but this doesn't work very well with item creation. I've tried to make a system of magical reagents similar to that of NWN but still more D&D. Is anyone interested in this?

Basically any monster that has a supernatural ability has a magical reagent. Depending on the ability, it is tied to different bodypart. For example, dragons have the supernatural ability to breath fire. I have tied this ability, rather arbitrarily, to the dragon's blood. Another DM could tie this to it's lungs or whatever seems rational.

The nature of the ability governs what the magical reagent can be used for. In the case of the dragon above, breathing fire is an evocation effect. This means dragon's blood can be used to create evocation items such as a wand of lightning or a horn of blasting.

With this system the creator does not need to spend gold or XP, he only need to have the proper reagents and the laboratory facilities (and the proper feat, naturally). You could of course buy the reagent and the price would still be the same as in the core rules. For example the reagent (e.g. mephit blood) to create a potion of cure light wounds would be worth 25 gp.

The CR of the monster is equal to the magical reagents potency. This means that the blood of a juvenile blue dragon CR 7 is a lot less potent than the blood of an ancient red wyrm CR 25.

Do you want to know more?

 

[tmaaas]

This idea has a lot of potential as an alternative to xp-based item creation or casting.

So, I my party just killed a juvenile blue dragon, we'd be able to harvest a 'CR 7' evocation reagent from it?

Some questions/ideas:

* What quantity of reagent may be harvested? Enough for one 'item'? For a certain amount of 'XP' substitute? Is this directly related to the 'CR' value or separate? Is it related the to creature’s size?

* Can you combine lower CR reagents to substitute for a higher CR reagent? Do two CR 7 reagents make a CR 9 (using the +2 CR = twice as powerful concept)? CR 14? Something else?

* Can 'universal' reagents be harvested? Can any reagent be used to power a 'universal' effect?

* What about creatures with more than one supernatural ability?

If you plan on fully developing this reagent idea, you might also want to consider:

* Its effect on frequency of magic item creation. Will it make it more or less common?

* Its effect on over all character wealth. Now they have another source of treasure. This may impact what creatures the DM throws at the party.

* Using the same rules to replace XP cost for spells.

* The benefit it gives item-creating spellcasters relative to other classes. Now they don't have to fall behind in levels.

* Balance between magic schools. I would assume that evocation would be the easiest to obtain reagents for.

* Reagents from creatures with spell-like abilities. Essentially, if the ability can be suppressed by a no magic zone and is ‘inherent’ to the creature, it probably should have an associated reagent.

* If you are a true RBDM, rules for harvesting reagents from spellcasters (at least CHA based ones, since they are supposed to have ‘inherent’ magical power). But I would do it for all spellcasters. Makes it a little more interesting when other spellcasters are out for their blood, heart, brain, or whatever.

* Time and equipment necessary to harvest or transport reagents; spoilage; damage to reagents due to combat (might make the mage think twice about tossing that disintrigate spell . . .), etc.

Of course, if you did a complete job:
* coming up with a good basic system.
* updating all SRD creatures, spells, and items with reagents supplied/required (quantity/CR, suggested ‘parts’).
* new feats and prestige classes.
* play testing for balance.
I would encourage you to put it up for sale as a pdf.

Good luck,

tmaaas

 

[Frostmarrow]

Whoa! Good questions, I hope you will find some answers below. Please remember that nothing is set in stone.

In lieu of the XP and gold invested in the making of a magical item the creator can use magical reagents. Magical reagents are natural magical objects that are part of various creatures' physique. This reagents register as magical if the creature is slain. When making a magical item this way the proper laboratory equipment is still required.

A magical reagents potency is equal to the creature's CR. For example a juvenile blue dragons blood has a magical potency of 7. A creature's supernatural abilities govern what kind of magical power it contains. The dragon from the example above can breath lightning. Lightning belongs to the evocation school of magic so the blood from such a creature can only be used to fuel an evocation spell for the purposes of making a magical item up to caster level 7. So a wizard can create a wand of lightning if she has Craft Wand, lightning bolt as spell and the blood of a juvenile blue dragon. Or she could instead create a horn of blasting if she has Craft Wonderous Item, the shout-spell since horn of blasting has a caster level of 7 and shout also belongs to the evocation school.

When using several magical reagents the effects add up. However one can only benefit from one item of the same type. Therefore the skull of a mind flayer (CR 8) cannot be added with another mind flayer skull. It is possible though to combine the skull of a mindflayer with a baatezu eye, for example, from an imp (CR 2) which would in this case add up magical power of the divination school of magic to 10. Enough to make a crystal ball.

Knowing which creature has a magical reagent of a certain type is a Knowledge (Arcane)-check against DC 15+CR-value needed. Let's say a cleric needs to have a conjuration magical reagent worth CR 15 the cleric needs to pass a Knowledge (Arcane)-check DC 30. If successful the DM would inform the player of one creature that has it. In this case a the dust of a Nightwalker would suit his purposes.

Identifying the magical reagent of a slain monster is a Spellcraft check vs DC 15+CR of the monster. Sometimes the magical reagent is revealed by a detect magic-spell, however this depends on where the reagent is located in the body and if the spell will penetrate to those depths.

The enhancement bonus of magical weapons is created with the help of transmutation. The caster level of magically enhanced weapons is three times the enhancement bonus. So in order to make a +1 longsword the wizard will need the following: A masterworked longsword, magic weapon as spell, the Craft Magical Arms and Armor-feat and a transmutation magical reagent of 3, for instance the roots of an assassin vine.

Fo each spell needed to create a magical item an extra reagent must be added. In order to make a +1 flaming longsword the wizard will need: A masterworked longsword, magic weapon as spell, fireball as spell, the Craft Magical Arms and Armor-feat, the fur of a yeth hound and the blood of a nine headed pyrohydra.

For items that can be more powerful depending on the amount of gold invested in the item but has the same caster level regardless, must be fueled with extra power for each level. A pair of bracers of armor for example is caster level 7 and uses the mage armor-spell. To make it +1 it requires a magical reagent of the transmutaion school of CR no less than 7. If a wizard wants to create a pair of bracers of armor +2 she will need to add the reagent of yet another creature of the transmutation school of CR no less than 7. This reagent cannot be of the same type.
For example: A pair of bracers of armor +8 can be made if the wizard fuels the creation with the following: Aranea hide (4) and Barghest hide (5) plus a beholder eye stalk (13) plus a ghale skin (13) plus a couatl tail (10) plus juvenile copper dragon blood (8) plus gorgon blood (8) plus green slaad hide (9) plus the blood of a lesser vampire (7). The wizard adds the actual bracers and in a special ritual the wizard casts mage armor on the bracers. The magical reagents fuses with the bracers and the creation is complete. Any excess power is lost in the process.

Some magical reagents can be used to fuel spells of different schools of magic. For example the blood of a silver dragon can be used for necromancy or evocation. It cannot be used for both at the same time. However it is possible to use the blood of a silver dragon twice in the same item if it's used to fuel necromancy in one instance and evocation in another.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Reagent (no of reagents per subject) School CR

Aboleth's skull Enchantment 7
Aranea hide Transmutation 4
Arrow Hawk tail Evocation 3-8
Assassin Vine roots Transmutation 3
Barghest belly Necromancy 4,5
Barghest hide Transmutation 4,5
Basilisk eye (2) Transmutation 5
Behir blood Evocation 8
Beholder eyestalk (3) Enchantment 13
Beholder eyestalk (4) Transmutation 13
Beholder eyestalk (3) Necromancy 13
Beholder eye Abjuration 13
Belker smoke Transmutation 6
Blink dog paw (4) Transmutation 2
Blink dog tail Transmutation 2
Bodak eye (2) Necromancy 8
CELESTIALS
Celestial dust Enchantment 2-19
Celestial fluid Abjuration 2-19
Archon skull Transmutation 2-14
Celestial tongue Divination 2-19
Hound Archon hide Transmutation 4
Avoral hands (pair) Conjuration 9
Avoral eye (2) Divination 9
Ghale eye (2) Necromancy 13
Ghale skin Transmutation 13
Trumpet Archon trumpet Enchantment 14
Astral Deva mace Evocation 14

Chaos Beast flesh Transmutation 7
Chimera blood Evocation (Lightning, fire, cold)7
Chimera blood Conjuration (Acid, gas) 7
Choker spinal cord Transmutation 2
Cloaker skull Illusion 5
Cockatrice beak Transmutation 3
Couatl skull Divination 10
Couatl tail Transmutation 10
Darkmantle membrane Evocation 1
DEMONS
Tanar'ri skull Divination 2-18
Quasit skin Transmutation 3
Succubus lips Necromancy 9
Succubus skin Transmutation 9
Succubus tongue Divination 9
Bebilith hide Abjuration 9
Bebilith fluid Transmutation 9
Retriever eye (2) Evocation (or Transmutation) 10
Vrock tongue Evocation 13
Glabrezu eye (2) Divination 15
Nalfeshnee fur Necromancy 16
Nalfeshnee eye (2) Divination 16
Balor hide Necromancy (or Evocation) 18
Balor eye (2) Divination 18

Destrachan vocal cords Evocation 8
DEVILS
Baatezu eye (2) Divination 1-16
Imp hide Transmutation 2
Osyluth hide Necromancy 6
Osyluth skull Divination 6
Kyton chains Transmutation 6
Kyton eye (2) Enchantment (or Divination) 6
Barbazu skull Necromancy 7
Erinyes eye (2) Enchantment 7
Erinyes tongue Divination 7
Hamtula barbs Necromancy 8

Devourer ribcage Necromancy 11
Displacer Beast hide Illusion 4
Doppelganger skull Divination 3
Doppelganger hide Transmutation 3
DRAGONS
Black Dragon blood Conjuration 2-21
Blue Dragon blood Evocation 2-24
Green Dragon blood Conjuration 2-23
Red Dragon blood Evocation 3-25
White Dragon blood Evocation 1-20
Brass Dragon blood Enchantment (or Evocation) 2-24
Copper Dragon blood Transmutation (or Evocation) 2-24
Gold Dragon blood Necromancy (or Evocation) 4-26
Silver Dragon blood Necromancy (or Evocation) 3-25
Silver Dragon bones Transmutation 3-25

Dragon Turtle blood Evocation 9
Dragonne tongue Evocation 7
Dryad dust Transmutation 1
Ethereal Filcher hide Transmutation 3
Ethereal Filcher eye (4) Divination 3
Ethereal Marauder hide Transmutation 3
FORMIANS
Taskmaster skull Enchantment 7
Queen skull Divination 18

Genie in a bottle Transmutation 4-8
Ghoul's tongue Necromancy 1
Gibbering Mouther flesh Enchantment 5
Gibbering Mouther fluid Transmutation 5
Svirfneblin heart Abjuration 1
Gorgon blood Transmutation 8
Sea Hag eye Transmutation 4
Green Hag finger (2) Necromancy 5
Harpy tongue Enchantment 4
Hell Hound blood Evocation 3
Cryohydra blood Evocation 7-13
Pyrohydra blood Evocation 7-13
Lernaena hydra blood Conjuration 7-15
Invisible Stalker dust Illusion 7
Krenshar tongue Necromancy 1
Kuo-Tua hands Evocation 2
Lamia finger (2) Necromancy 6
Lammasu hide Abjuration 8
Medusa eye (2) Transmutation 7
Mephit blood Evocation (Fire) 3
Mephit blood Conjuration (Other) 3
Mind Flayer skull Divination 8
Mohrg tongue Necromancy 8
Mummy wrappings Necromancy 3
Mummy fluids Necromancy 3
Spirit Naga eyes (2) Enchantment 10
Dark Naga skull Divination 10
Night Hag heartstone Transmutation 9
Nightmare hoof (4) Evocation 5
Nightmare blood Conjuration 5
Nightmare hair Transmutation 5
NIGHTSHADE
Nightshade bones Evocation 14-18
Nightshade dust Conjuration 14-18
Nightshade hide Abjuration 14-18
Nightshade skull Divination 14-18
Nightwing claws (2) Necromancy 14
Nightwalker hands (2) Necromancy 16
Nightwalker eyes (2) Transmutation 16
Nightcrawler gizzard Necromancy 18
Nymph dust Transmutation 6
Ogre Mage horns (2) Transmutation 8
Phantom Fungus mass Illusion 3
Phase Spider hide Transmutation 5
Phasm goo Transmutation 7
Phasm sensory organ Divination 7
Pseudodragon skull Divination 1
Rakshasa skull Divination 9
Rakshasa hide Transmutation 9
Rakshasa heart Abjuration 9
Rast eye (2) Necromancy 5
Ravid tail Conjuration 5
Ravid claw Conjuration 5
Ravid eye (2) Transmutation 5
Ravid hide Transmutation 5
Satyr pipes Enchantment 2
Shadow Mastiff tongue Enchantment 5
Shadow Mastiff hide Illusion 5
Shocker Lizard horns Evocation 2
SLAAD
Red Slaad tongue Evocation 7
Green Slaad hide Transmutation 9
Gray Slaad hide Transmutation 10
Death Slaad hide Transmutation 13
Death Slaad skull Divination 13

SPHINX
Androsphinx tongue Necromancy 9

Spider Eater hide Abjuration 5
SPRITE
Pixie dust Illusion 4

Tarrasque scales Necromancy 20
Umber Hulk facet eyes (2) Enchantment 7
Unicorn horn Abjuration 3
Vampire Spawn eye (2) Enchantment 4
Vampire Spawn hands (2) Necromancy 4
Vampire Spawn gas Transmutation 4
Vargouille tongue Necromancy 2
Wight clawed hands (2) Necromancy 3
Winter Wolf blood Evocation 5
Xill scales Transmutation 6
Yeth Hound tongue Necromancy 3
Yeth Hound fur Transmutation 3
Yrthak horn Evocation 9
Celestial Creature blood Abjuration +0-+2
Fiendish Creature blood Abjuration +0-+2
Half-Celestial blood Abjuration +1
HALF-DRAGONS
Half-Black Dragon blood Evocation +2
Half-Blue Dragon blood Evocation +2
Half-Green Dragon blood Conjuration +2
Half-Red Dragon blood Evocation +2
Half-White Dragon blood Evocation +2
Half-Brass Dragon blood Evocation +2
Half-Bronze Dragon blood Evocation +2
Half-Copper Dragon blood Conjuration +2
Half-Gold Dragon blood Evocation +2
Half-Silver Dragon blood Evocation +2

Half-Fiend blood Transmutation +2
Lich hand Necromancy +2
Lich dust Abjuration +2
Lycanthrope hide Transmutation +2
Vampire eye (2) Enchantment +2
Vampire hands (2) Necromancy +2
Vampire fangs (2) Necromancy +2
Vampire heart Enchantment +2
Vampie dust Abjuration +2
Vampire blood Transmutation +2

 

[Frostmarrow]

tmaas questions:

* What quantity of reagent may be harvested? Enough for one 'item'? For a certain amount of 'XP' substitute? Is this directly related to the 'CR' value or separate? Is it related the to creature’s size?

The magical reagent harvested is small enough to fit in your pocket. Even though a dragon has buckets of blood in it's veins you can only harvest one vial worth of it per dragon.

* Can you combine lower CR reagents to substitute for a higher CR reagent? Do two CR 7 reagents make a CR 9 (using the +2 CR = twice as powerful concept)? CR 14? Something else?

You can combine different reagents and they add up. You cannot combine the same type of reagent. If you mix ancient wyrm blood with juvenile blood it still will only function as ancient wyrm blood. You can mix it with gorgon blood, though.

* Can 'universal' reagents be harvested? Can any reagent be used to power a 'universal' effect?

Any reagent can be used to power a universal effect.

* What about creatures with more than one supernatural ability?

A creature that has more than one supernatural ability has more than one magical reagent. If a monster can dominate people and detect magic probably has a magical skull and a pair of magical eyes. However if a creature has several abilities of the same type tied to the same organ it still counts as one magical reagent. I.e. a creature that detects magic AND good has a pair of magical eyes not two pairs.

* Its effect on frequency of magic item creation. Will it make it more or less common?

I don't know. In my experience magical item creation is limited by time more than anything else. As soon as you sit down to do a little research the fighters get ants in their pants and has to rush off to slay something, leaving the wizard very little time. The good news is that the wizard can benefit from slaying monsters so he's probably game. This has to be playtested.

* Its effect on over all character wealth. Now they have another source of treasure. This may impact what creatures the DM throws at the party.

I guess monsters with a magical reagent should have the value of it reduced from their treasure total. A magical reagent is worth half of the market price of an item you can create with it. So mephit blood which can be used to make a potion of cure light wounds is worth 25 gp.

* Using the same rules to replace XP cost for spells.

Why not? Perhaps even ditch the necessity for material components since the 'flavor' of having material components is substituted by carrying around magical reagents.

* The benefit it gives item-creating spellcasters relative to other classes. Now they don't have to fall behind in levels.

I guess they won't. In my group we don't use XP as written so for us this won't change. On the other hand it's easier for none item-creators to have their own stuff made, since the creator just needs the proper reagents to make it happen. The upside is that the players might take more initiative in the hunt for the right kind of reagents.

* Balance between magic schools. I would assume that evocation would be the easiest to obtain reagents for.

Transmutation is by far the most common school. I guess conjuration is the rarest. There is some balance since most items use transmutation. Maybe conjuration is too rare? (See list.) I have to check out the MMII to know for sure.

* Reagents from creatures with spell-like abilities. Essentially, if the ability can be suppressed by a no magic zone and is ‘inherent’ to the creature, it probably should have an associated reagent.

I think spell-like abilities are taught by the creature's culture rather than innate.

* If you are a true RBDM, rules for harvesting reagents from spellcasters (at least CHA based ones, since they are supposed to have ‘inherent’ magical power). But I would do it for all spellcasters. Makes it a little more interesting when other spellcasters are out for their blood, heart, brain, or whatever.

Not in my campaign, but the idea certainly has merit.

* Time and equipment necessary to harvest or transport reagents; spoilage; damage to reagents due to combat (might make the mage think twice about tossing that disintrigate spell . . .), etc.

Yeah... This is a load of work. I guess I will try to keep it simple. Most people don't enjoy autopsy-reports as much as one would imagine.

Thanks for the questions tmaas!

 

[Frostmarrow]

bump

 

[negativtoo]

hmmm, while a nice idea, I flinch a bit at giving (my) players yet another reason to slay the monster - for its sheer magical value - now they can profit directly from the monster's demise ( in addition to a possible xp reward ) simply by dissecting its corpse and harvesting useful components - instead of putting some brainpower online to find and carry off its treasure ( if any ). And, conveniently reducing/shrinking the valuable "essence" into something easily transported ("handsized" ) sounds like overkill - stormgiant bones for wands of lightning, ok, sounds "beliecable", but shrinking them to the size of chopsticks ? NAWHHHHHH

Even _IF_ I would allow it ( possibly basing identification of useful parts on a hefty spellcraft test - like DC15 + caster level to be replaced ( or even one half or twice the caster level ), I would only permit the replacement of the GP value part of the enchantment process.
The one, single and reliable restraint to a "magic-item affluent" society is the fact, that the players/item-creators currently have to pay for getting the item with a comodity (XP ) irreplacable with mere gold, and hard to get back - you get xp only for challenging encounters, not "fireball-harvesting" pesky feys.
Given that half an item's market value is its creation cost, a wizard could turn a tidy profit by sending out his lackeys (suitably equipped with magic arms and gear ) to harvest "rare" beast for item creation - and being guaranteed a nice monetary profit and having his precious level protected through the use of ingredients at the same time. Or he simply could himeslf "nuke-to -pieces" lesser beasts sufficent for the creation of nice medium-range items - few CR-7 encounters are real challenges for a high level mage or cleric - like around level 15..... Sorry, not on my watch as GM. I am already wary enough of the "item made to specification"- method permissible by 3E rules as theyy stand - they seem (at times) like an invitation of getting down to some real "nifty-item-combo" for high level chars - without taking away the one _real_ deterrent there. To create something of high value, the caster should reasonably have to invest something of himself, some sacrifice, into it - loosing XP fits the bill really well, IMHO. At the same time, I do allow someone else to WILLINGLY sacrifice the XP for an item - usually the guy who wants the item tailor-made to size for him - not necessarily the fixed amount, though (commonly more, in case you had to ask ). As a result, the group's "creator" does not have to foot the XP bill himself without an actual benefit.


Likewise, while admitting the feasibility (if inherently flawed system ) of the proposed method for wizards ( and sorcerors ), I do not see it working "in style" for clerics - who can be pretty good at item creation (as well they should be, with several of the canon domains and a wide range of dedicated Dieties of Creation in several pantheons and settings ) - heart of a Behir etc. powering the mighty lightning staff crafted by the servant of the Stormgod ? The hair of dryads being ground to dust for the secret love potions of Aphrodite ? Does not even sound feasible if one does it with locks from a succubus or whatever...
Usually the beings strongest in a certain aspect of magic (like creatures of Earth, Skydwellers, Merfolk, whatever.... ) are those commonly considered most sacred by a certain religion - or, sadly enough, the most vile and despicable : I cannot honestly imagine Aphrodite or Sune Firehair, not even Hallani Cellanil (?) endorsing the use of a Succubus' parts/essences for items enchanted by their priesthood(s). So - should one shortshrift the clerics ? Have a religious debate about the feasabilty of using the ingredients from each and every enemy slain ? And creating some items with divine help through use of a creature totally insignificant to the diety ? Why would he grant his priests the powers to be invested in it ?
It might work out, to again just lower the GP-cost charged for enchanting an item through the sacrifice of the essence from a despised foe of the diety, but that would still be easy to abuse by picking on creatures far below you in level. Also, striking down the enemy of one's god(s) should be a goal of and by itself for every properly played cleric/priest, and not be done to reap some material reward (like more items ) from.

As for "distilling" other spellcasters, clerics and magical creatures (regardless of alignment and disposition ) for use and convenient reductions in item creation - this debate is one that would get truly evil and possibly very vile quickly - not that humankind (in RL-history ) has not debased itself to do things like that. Good subject for the Book of Vile Darkness - if you want that possibility explored by your players, I think it handles blood sacrifices etc...

In the end, this "reagent"system _does_ add some flavour to the process of magical creations, but it screws up the established item creation rules in major ways -as well as turning up some serious ethical problems, Meta-game wise and in RL. Too little gain for too many problems caused. just my 0.02 cents

 

[der_kluge]

Perhaps Mystic Eye Games can help -

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28679

Sounds like Frostmarrow and I are thinking alike here. We've gone beyond monster byproducts, and included plants/herbs, gems, and other things as well. In addition to completely rebuilding the magic item creation system from the ground up.