D&D 5E Low CRs and "Boring" Monsters: Ogre

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone. The 4E vs 5E monster thread is still simmering at the front of my mind, even though I bowed out as it seemed to be circling the drain. While I was prepping for my next game, i was looking at the Ogre's stats. I've been building a lot of custom monsters lately, so I've been digesting the DMG's CR calculator, and the Ogre immediately stood out to me as an issue. They are both an incredibly boring monster as well as one that looks quite underpowered for it's CR.

The Ogre has 59 HP and an AC of 11. It deals an average of 13 damage with it's one attack, and has an attack bonus of +6.

According to the CR calculator, that's a defensive CR of 1/4 (59 HP is 1/2 CR, 11 AC is 2 below the baseline 13 so -1 CR to final CR of 1/4) and an offensive CR of 2 (13 damage is a CR of 1, +6 attack is 3 above baseline for +1 CR to a final CR of 2). 2 and 1/4 average to somewhere between 1/2 and 1, so round up to 1 (if you're supposed to mathematically average them, then 2.25/2 is 1.25, rounds to 1).

They're a bag of HP. They're easy to hit. They have a reasonable attack bonus for their level, but they only hit as hard as a fighter with a greatsword. To me, it looks like they're missing an ability. Multiattack for 2 greatclub attacks would double their damage. That would up their offensive CR to 4, and 4 and 1/4 average to 2 by steps or mathematically. That would potentially make them more interesting, as you could swap out an attack for a Push to make them seem like they hit like a truck (knocking people away or knocking them down). Something like Reckless Attack would add some character (and it self balances by lowering defense while raising offense).

Have you noticed anything else that seems odd in the Monster Manual?

 

[Dualazi]

Well, yeah, many people have. It's been an oft discussed topic here over the years, with most people coming down somewhere between wanting more of 4e's relatively complex offerings and others prioritizing speed of play with these 'simple' foes and relying on improv. for anything else. Kind of beating a dead horse at this point, and sadly it was not the subject of a Raise Dead with the release of volo's.

For what it's worth, I agree, and said as much in the other thread praising 4e monster design. Some classes of enemies (giants in particular) have no abilities of note whatsoever until their final high-CR iterations, and even then is usually in the form of spellcasting ability. What really bothers me even more than the spell thing is that many other aspects of enemy design like auras, marks, and modular defenses didn't make it in, when many of those things require a trivial amount of upkeep.

 

[guachi]

I'm trying to think of a humanoid I found more disappointing than the ogre and I can't think of one. It's the poster child for a boring bag of hit points. Ogres should be terrifying for a low level party and they just aren't.

The ogre should be a CR 1 creature by its stats, not CR2. A bandit captain is a good CR 2 creature.

Also, the need to be more monsters by 'progression' like you are at the back of the MM. I like what's there, but I need more. Lots more.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Ogres are perfectly in-line with what the monster creation guidelines in the DMG lay out as the normal process of determining CR - which is incredibly easy to do, even while not matching the math portion precisely, because part of the process is to adjust final CR up or down based on play-testing information.

And since an ogre deals enough damage in one hit to put a 1st level character out of the fight with a single hit, or outright kill a 1st level character with a critical hit, it's not at all surprising that the final CR was bumped upward from the CR 1 the math comes out to for a final result of CR 2.

 

[John R Davis]

Like nearly all dnd5 beasties, they are not a good solo monster. Evening bunging in a few simple animal allies adds to the threat. Monsters aren't boring, sometimes how they are used is.

 

[Argyle King]

Have you noticed anything else that seems odd in the Monster Manual?

I have. I have also noticed that my own creatures tend to fall between levels.

That is one of many reasons which make me lean toward believing 5th Edition would work a little better if it borrowed the idea of 30 levels from 4th Edition. (Lack of feat granularity and player choice are reasons as well.)

 

[n0nym]

There's a simple solution for all those boring"solo" monsters : give them 1 legendary action or 1 special action. Something that changes the fight configuration, like Pushing, Knocking prone, Grabbing, etc... or that forces the PCs to think.

In this case, I would give the Ogre the following options :

* Sweep (special rule) : if the Ogre misses with an attack, it can try to hit targets that are adjacent to its initial target, dealing up to to its Strength modifier damage.
> Tell the players beforehand that the monster makes big sweeping moves as he strikes

And / or

* Slam the ground : as a Legendary action, the Ogre slams the ground with his greatclub. Each target adjacent to it must make a DC11 Acrobatics check or be Knocked prone.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

They're a bag of HP. They're easy to hit. They have a reasonable attack bonus for their level, but they only hit as hard as a fighter with a greatsword. To me, it looks like they're missing an ability. Multiattack for 2 greatclub attacks would double their damage. That would up their offensive CR to 4, and 4 and 1/4 average to 2 by steps or mathematically. That would potentially make them more interesting, as you could swap out an attack for a Push to make them seem like they hit like a truck (knocking people away or knocking them down). Something like Reckless Attack would add some character (and it self balances by lowering defense while raising offense).

I didn't have a problem per se with the Ogre coming into this thread (though it I know it is much weaker than other CR 2 monsters like Githzerai and Orogs), but now that you mention it I have to admit that a Multiattacking Ogre with Reckless Attack sounds a lot more fun than the MM version. It's still a big bag of easily-killed HP, but now it is kind of a mini Hill Giant, which comports with my memories from AD&D of what an ogre is supposed to be like: brutish and scary if you're stuck within melee range of one.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Honestly Ogre's are fine the way they are to me. Are they interesting no, but they don't really need to be as they are simply big stupid brutes.

 

[Jester David]

I had an okay encounter with a couple ogres in my game.

I gave them names, and had them talking to each other, as they searched for food. The players tried to negotiate, but ogres be greedy and betrayed the party. The encounter wasn't amazing for the simple reason my party encountered them at a distance and had a couple rounds of archery before they closed the gap. And a couple rounds in 5e is most of the combat.
But no number of interesting attack options would have changed that.

I also spent 10 seconds altering the statblock of one to include a large battle axe, which I described as a log with several wood axe blades nailed to it. The other retained the great club but had inserted nails into it in the hopes of having a spiked club. However, as the nails were too short to jut out, it was just a club with nail heads in the wood.
Which helped make them stand out.

Ogres are a little weak for CR2. Most monsters in the MM are over-CRed based on the guidelines in the DMG. Almost as if those rules were written months after the Monster Manual..