Longsword vs. Greatsword

[Lord Pendragon]

I have a 2nd-level paladin, with a 17 strength and a 17 charisma. He plans on bumping charisma to 18 at 4th-level, and taking Divine Might asap. He'll probably bump strength at 8th-level, though that's a ways off. He currently has Power Attack and Mounted Combat as feats.

Here's my query: I'm currently using a longsword and large shield, but I'm strongly considering switching to a greatsword. I'd lose the -2 AC from the shield, but gain +1 damage (from 1/2 again strength) and 2d6 instead of 1d8 damage. Plus I'd be able to trade -1 to hit for +2 to damage via Power Attack.

Is this a good tradeoff? Are there factors I'm not considering? What would you choose?

 

[mikebr99]

Keep the shield... head for Divine Shield feat. YMMV



Mike

 

[Enforcer]

Well, with a shield there's the Divine Shield feat (Complete Warrior, p. 106). This lets you trade a turning attempt for an AC bonus on the shield. It actually lasts a decent amount of time too. A shield also probably makes more stylistic sense on horseback.

But, I always think that what's dead can't hurt you, and would personally go with the great sword. I would also bump up my Strength before Charisma, cause that means an extra +1 to hit and +2 to damage--it's like weapon focus and weapon specialization combined. The extra +1 to hit from 18 Str also takes some sting out of using Power Attack. And woo boy, Power Attack is fun with two-handed weapons!

There's also the question of what deity your paladin worships. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Tyr favors the longsword while Torm prefers the greatsword.

 

[Len]

Go for the greatsword. The fighter/paladin in my group can cut through DR like butter, and Great Cleave as if it were Whirlwind Attack.

OK, we need a tiebreaker.
Edit: Oops, Enforcer got in there already.

 

[Sejs]

I'd go sword and board. Divine Might, Divine Shield, Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting if so inclined.

 

[RiTz21]

When you say "Divine Might" do you mean "Divine Grace" ?

In your shoes, I would definitivly increase my STR.
the %50 bonus on the STR would then be +6 for a Longsword held two-handed, or a greatsword (2d6+6+Power attack = OUCH). Not only that but having +4 STR bonus instead of +3 will help you offset the price to pay for Power attacks !! (with 18, you get +4 to hit with melee weapons instead of +3!)

I would not "loose" the shield in this situation - I would keep BOTH blades & Shield ands would use one or the others depending on the situation (it's up to you to decide which one is more important: AC or Doing lots of damage.

And with 18 STR, you probably won't have any problem caryring those items around...

RiTz21

 

[Lord Pendragon]

When you say "Divine Might" do you mean "Divine Grace" ?

I mean Divine Might. It's a feat in Defenders of the Faith that allows one to spend a turning attempt to gain +[cha bonus] to attacks for [cha bonus] number of rounds. In my case, it would allow me to gain +4 damage for 4 rounds per activation. I'm not sure if this feat has been reprinted or changed in The Complete Warrior or The Complete Divine since I haven't looked through those books yet, but it's a very paladin-friendly feat.

In your shoes, I would definitivly increase my STR.

Well, there are a lot of trade-offs for a paladin. Increasing strength gives me +1 to attack, and (if wielding a 2hs) +2 to damage. Increasing charisma gives me +1 to damage (while using Divine Might), +1 round of increased damage (Divine Might), +1 to all saves (Divine Grace), + a factor of 1 to Lay on Hands, and if I took it later, +1 to AC (Divine Shield). And increased Turning effectiveness, though with a true cleric in the party there will rarely be a need for that.

So, with all that in mind, I've decided to bump charisma first. I still get a bonus to damage, and several other bonuses as well. Saves is very nice, since I hate failing those.

Keep the shield... head for Divine Shield feat. YMMV

Have they redone this feat for 3.5? The 3.0 version has a prerequisite of Improved Shield Bash, but I know they redid all the shield feats, so I wasn't sure what the new prereqs were. Does it also still add to the shield's offensive enhancement bonus?

There's also the question of what deity your paladin worships. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Tyr favors the longsword while Torm prefers the greatsword.

It's a homebrew that uses the standard gods plus some elemental ones. My paladin worships Pelor.

Regarding your comment about strength, I'm still pretty set on charisma, then strength, for the reasons I mentioned above.

As has been pointed out, I suppose I don't really need to make a firm decision until level 9, when I'd like to pick up Improved Critical. But I'd like to have an idea where I'm heading.

Another problem, of course, is that a paladin is naturally feat-lite. I am pondering taking Ride By Attack-->Spirited Charge, so Improved Shield Bash-->Divine Shield will either delay that, or be delayed itself until later levels.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As RiTz21 said, you don't need to choose between the two. Carry both (masterwork weapons are cheap by midgame--you might even choose to have one be a special material so you can cut through DR more easily). That way, when you're faced by a horde of kobolds who go down in one hit with either weapon, you can use the shield and if you need to power attack to pass DR or to punish a creature with lousy AC and an insane to hit, you can use the greatsword. (Or just two-hand the longsword). At higher levels, you may well find situations where the difference in damage between the longsword and the greatsword isn't so significant but those will mostly be 1.2 hits with the greatsword vs. 2 hits with the longsword (avg damage 15 vs 16-21 hp foes vs avg damage 10.5 vs. 16-21 hp foes) or 2.1 hits with the greatsword vs. 3 hits with the longsword (avg damage 18 vs 37-41 hp foes vs avg damage 13.5 vs. 37-41 hp foes).

That said, your character has some things that will skew the advantage. Power Attack works better with a two handed weapon so, when you're power attacking, the greatsword gets more comparitive advantage. On the other hand, Divine Might and Smite Evil are (in terms of percentage) better for the longsword. (Given an 8th level paladin with an 18 strength, a +2 weapon, and a 19 charisma (+2 cloak), the greatsword does an average of 15 points of damage normally, 19 with divine might, 23 with a smite evil, and 27 with smite evil and divine might; the longsword does 10.5 damage normally, 15.5 with divine might, 18.5 with smite evil, and 22.5 with smite evil and divine might. That's about 2/3, 4/5, 4/5, and 5/6 of the greatsword's damage respectively). So, it comes down to this: is power attack more important to your fighting style than Divine Might and Smite Evil? Power Attack favors the greatsword and the other two favor the longsword.

That said, you need to consider this choice when prioritizing your equipment. By level 8, the difference between AC 19 (fullplate +1 dex or enhancement) and 21 (fullplate, large shield, and 1 point from dex or enhancement) isn't very big. Nor is the difference between 19 (+1 fullplate, no dex), and 20 (+2 fullplate, no dex). However, the difference between 21 (+2 fullplate, +1 dex) and 25 (+1 dex, +2 fullplate, +2 shield) is very significant. The upshot of this is that the multi-style route is only viable if you invest enough money in defense to make the shield bonus worthwhile when it's available. Otherwise, you'll find that it's almost never advantageous to reduce your damage in return for an insignificant AC boost from a normal shield.

The way to really get the best of both worlds would probably be to wield a longsword and a buckler. At mid levels, +3 to +6 AC from a (+2 to +5) buckler is not much worse than +4 to +7 AC from a (+2 to +5) heavy shield. And, using a buckler, you can freely switch to wield your longsword in two hands and get more benefit from power attack or wield the longsword in one hand and get the buckler's AC benefit.

 

[Legildur]

The way to really get the best of both worlds would probably be to wield a longsword and a buckler. At mid levels, +3 to +6 AC from a (+2 to +5) buckler is not much worse than +4 to +7 AC from a (+2 to +5) heavy shield. And, using a buckler, you can freely switch to wield your longsword in two hands and get more benefit from power attack or wield the longsword in one hand and get the buckler's AC benefit.

Yup. I've had some good success with the buckler and longsword combination for my elven fighter/paladin. But yet to collect Power Attack and Divine Might. However, the flexibility to add half str bonus to damage from 2-handed attack has proved useful when I needed maximum output (like against a demon).

Don't forget that attacking 2-handed while wearing a buckler incurs a -1 penalty.

And yes, Divine Shield in Complete Warrior no longer has the Improved Shield Bash feat as a prerequisite, but the duration is substantially reduced.

 

[the Jester]

Lord P, both Divine Might and Divine Shield are in Complete Warrior.

Divine Might is now a free action to activate but only lasts one round. Divine Shield now requires only proficiency and the ability to channel, and it lasts a number of rounds equal to half your character level.