Lolth

[kuje31]

I'm asking for some help from the board members.

Lolth did have history written about her in 1e Greyhawk, correct? I don't have any Greyhawk material except for the 3e and the RPGA 3E material.

She was a demon lord that became a deity in Greyhawk, correct?

I know that she was a deity in FR that later was named/made tanar'ri.

However, this one poster keeps telling me that Lolth never had any history in Greyhawk and that it was assumed people were supposed to use FR's history about her even if you were playing in Greyhawk, which I disagree with. I have also quoted to him the old Deities and Demigods where it says she is a demon lord but he says that doesn't count as Greyhawk history.

 

[BOZ]

lolth, in 1E IIRC, was both a demon lord and a goddess at the same time.

 

[kuje31]

lolth, in 1E IIRC, was both a demon lord and a goddess at the same time.

So she did have written history in 1e Greyhawk then?

 

[NiTessine]

So she did have written history in 1e Greyhawk then?

None that I can find. It's not in Queen of the Spiders, apparently.

However, the poster you're talking with is sorta right... Before the 3E separation of cosmologies, the GH and FR Lolths were pretty much the same entities, and the FR novel Evermeet: Island of Elves did have the details on Lolth being kicked out of Arvandor and into the Abyss.

If there's something of worth to be dredged out of this morass, it is that the silence of Lolth in FR happened a short while after the GH novel Queen of the Demonweb Pits came out.

 

[kuje31]

None that I can find. It's not in Queen of the Spiders, apparently.

However, the poster you're talking with is sorta right... Before the 3E separation of cosmologies, the GH and FR Lolths were pretty much the same entities, and the FR novel Evermeet: Island of Elves did have the details on Lolth being kicked out of Arvandor and into the Abyss.

If there's something of worth to be dredged out of this morass, it is that the silence of Lolth in FR happened a short while after the GH novel Queen of the Demonweb Pits came out.

Aye I got that but most 'Hawk fans, that I've seen, have said that she was a demon lord who became a deity while it's the opposite in FR.

 

[Samuel Leming]

Hey Kuge, how's it going?

Kuge used to be one of my DM's. He's not one of the ones I've been griping about though

I sure she first appeared in D3: "Vault of the Drow" and Q1 "Queen of the Demonweb Pits". She's called either a demon Lord or demon Queen. Her stats are listed on page 26 of D3 and page 31 of Q1. Her stats are too low to be a deity even back then. 66hp? Come on...

She's a demon Lord retrofitted to be a deity when the game changed. Don't know if that helps or not.

Sam

 

[kuje31]

Hey Kuge, how's it going?

Kuge used to be one of my DM's. He's not one of the ones I've been griping about though

I sure she first appeared in D3: "Vault of the Drow" and Q1 "Queen of the Demonweb Pits". She's called either a demon Lord or demon Queen. Her stats are listed on page 26 of D3 and page 31 of Q1. Her stats are too low to be a deity even back then. 66hp? Come on...

She's a demon Lord retrofitted to be a deity when the game changed. Don't know if that helps or not.

Sam

It helped, hopefully. I used your info in the debate since I don't own those modules.

 

[Samuel Leming]

Did a little more reading.

D3 - Vault of the Drow and Q1 - Queen of the Demonweb Pits were published about two years apart. During that time the first edition Deities and Demigods came out. This listed her as a lesser goddess. The last page, the 32cd, of Q1 has an optional section with the lesser goddess information in it.

Sorry. The retrofit happened a little earlier than I thought. I should have remembered that. It's only been twenty five years.

Well, anyway, when the group I was a part of kicked Lolth's bloated backside she was only a demon Lord.

Sam

 

[naturaltwenty]

Earliest Dragon Magazine Reference

After pulling out the Dragon Magazine Archive and searching on both Lloth and Lolth (the original spelling) there seems to be something of a conundrum. From the quotes below we can deduce that Lolth was introduced in the Giants series but started to be more fleshed out by Ed Greenwood.

Dragon Magazine Issue 54 October 1981, Article: Down-to-earth divinity "One DM's design for a mixed & matched mythos by Ed Greenwood

Page 9 has a table - The Deities and Demigods of the Forgotten Realms: Cults of the Beast. Lolth is listed as having the Demon Queen of Spiders Portfolio and is listed as a Lesser Goddess.

Quotes Ed Greenwood:

pg 9 " In my case, I wanted all of the outer planes to have ruling deities (a la Lolth’s rule of a plane of the Abyss in Q1)."

pg 52 "The DM must create such servants, for at present few divine beings have servants clearly defined in the AD&D system, beyond the demon princes, archdevils, Blibdoolpoolp and Lolth in the D (and Q) modules, and Hepaestus in DDG."

pg 54 "Although Lolth is presented in DDG under “Nonhumans’ Deities,” I have listed her also among the Cults of the Beast, for in the Realms she is considered so. Lolth and her worship is known — though it is very rare — and the Drow are not, except in legend." My personal comment - man has this changed since 1981


Later,

Greg Volz
Natural Twenty Gaming
www.naturaltwenty.com

 

[DarrenGMiller]

Actually, I was doing some research on this last night, albeit indirectly.

The first Greyhawk reference to Lolth is found in the adventure T1 The Village of Hommlett. Lareth the Beautiful, in the moathouse is listed as a male human priest of Lolth. Gygax did this to tie the Vault of the Drow into his campaign, although Lareth was actually being granted spells by the Elder Elemental Eye, posing as Lolth. In the various revisions, etc. The mess over who Lareth actually worshipped and who Lolth was got lost when Gygax turned editing duties over after getting swamped with several projects. She is in the monstrous deities section of the first printing of Deities & Demigods as a demon lord and minor goddess. She is also referred to in Vault of the Drow and of course Queen of the Demonweb Pits, but there is no concrete history of her since her creator had turned to other things and the products were written from his incomplete notes.

I found most of this info on the web somewhere. If you Google "Lareth the Beautiful" you should find most of it pretty easily. Hope that helps.

DM