D&D 5E LMoP (spoilers) - Why need map for final location?

[Rya.Reisender]

One thing I don't quite understand in Lost Mine of Phandelver is why Gundren creates a map of the location of the Wave Echo Cave. I mean that's just increased risk that someone else could find out about it. It also says that Gundren refuses to leave Cragmaw Castle without the map, why? He doesn't remember the location anymore? He was there just a few weeks ago! Dwarves aren't exactly known for being forgetful are they? What if the group manages to save Gundren but the map gets destroyed. Couldn't Gundren show the PCs where it is? Or do they need to search for other leads?

 

[jrowland]

I recommend removing any and all references to the map. It's all about Gundren, and helps explain why he is kept alive. HOwever, there is another issue: WHy is the Black Spider in the complex if the PCs get the map (if you used it) and save Gundren? Overall I would change it to:

1) No map. Gundren knows where it is, the map is superfluous and adds no value to the story.
2) As the game begins, The Black Spider already has entered the mines and killed one brother and captured the other. He learns Gundren is the key to success and so has his agents look for him.
3) The Black Spider wants Gundren as HE knows how to operate the Forge of Spells/The Smelter/Make Mithral (whatever fits your campaign)


If you haven't found the threads, there are a bunch regarding LMoP and upgrading it. My favorite "hack" is to tie the villains with the various other story lines: The Black SPider might capture characters and sell them to a Drow Outpost as slaves (Out of the Abyss), The Green Dragon and Cultists might raid Phandalin (Hoard of the Dragon Queen), and Glasstaff has orders from someone named "Aerisi" to capture potential "recruits" and send them to "Feathergale Spire" (Princes of the Apocalypse).

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Okay, I see others are bothered with it too. But I don't like changing official modules, was more wondering if there could be a reasonable explanation for it.

By the way, I think the Black Spider's motive already makes sense. I see it like this: He was already at the Wave Echo Cave when the Rockseeker brothers discovered it. He probably placed someone to guard the entrance and thus found out that three dwarves found the entrance. He wants to prevent anybody from finding out its location, consequently he wants everyone who knows about it to get killed and all maps destroyed. Seems perfectly reasonable to me from his side.

The part that makes less sense is Gundren going back to Neverwinter to get supplies but needing a map to find the Wave Echo Cave again.

Maybe it's so that only Gundren's brothers discovered the entrance and Gundren was always in Neverwinter and they send him the map so he can find it?

 

[jrowland]

Maybe it's so that only Gundren's brothers discovered the entrance and Gundren was always in Neverwinter and they send him the map so he can find it?

That actually makes a lot of sense.

In my campaign:
Tharden was the Priest of Moradin (the wise one) and dies
Nundro is the Warrior (the strong one) and survives but is captured
Gundren is the Smith/Miner who knows all the dwarven secrets (the smart one)

I think for you, they (tharden and nundro) sent a note along with the map explaining how they've found the collapsed entrance, here's how to get here, we're going to dig in a side tunnel. Bring supplies. They then dig into the complex and run into trouble. I'd put a way down to the underdark somewhere (the lake?) and you're good to go.

But remember: players have an uncanny knack of ignoring obvious details, focusing on irrelevant ones, and creating wild suppositions of their own. My advice: roll with it and let them feel clever for "figuring it out".

 

[Azurewraith]

That actually makes a lot of sense.


But remember: players have an uncanny knack of ignoring obvious details, focusing on irrelevant ones, and creating wild suppositions of their own. My advice: roll with it and let them feel clever for "figuring it out".

This 1000 times over i find its great to have things straight in your head but if the pcs come up with there own ideas just roll with it as it can lead to the most interesting situations.

 

[spectacle]

It's not easy to navigate in the wilds without a map, and it would suck to find the Lost Mines of Phandelver just to Lose them again because you lost track of how to get there.

Gundren probably refuses to leave Cragmaw Castle without the map because he doesn't want to leave it behind to be found by anyone else. It's best not to leave loose ends behind if you want to keep secrets.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Actually I just noticed something. When you look on the page where you find the map in Cragmaw Castle, on the right hand side is an illustration of the stitched leather sack with some coins and a map in the background. The map doesn't actually show any landscape, but rather a dwarven mine complex (which is not Wave Echo Cave). Maybe Wave Echo Cave is actually hidden deep inside a mine and the map actually shows the path from the mine entrance to the Wave Echo Cave rather than showing where on the world map the cave lies.

So it could be that the adventurers need both Gundren and the map. Gundren to know where the entrance to the mine is and the map to find the cave from the mine entrance.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Its good thing there is a map. When I ran this adventure, the players spent too much time farting around outside Craigmaw castle after discovering via druid recon as a spider, that Gundren was being held captive inside. By the time the party got their act together to perform a rescue, the poor dwarf was already spitted and roasting in the dining hall fireplace with choice bits being nibbled on by the goblins.

Too much resting has consequences.

 

[NotActuallyTim]

Who wants to return somewhere and just assumes they'll get back there on nothing but memory? And if it's a risk to leave that map behind, why would Gundren leave without the map?

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

I had the map been written in a complex code that only Gundren understood, along with his brothers. They were the ones that found the mine and sent word to Gundren in Neverwinter to come with supplies. In my head it was a mixture of dwarven, gnomic, and a secret language that the brothers had invented between them in their youth.