Living Constructs - Lots of questions and nitpicking

[Ragmon]

Welcome one and all.

Once again I wish to ask for the wisdom of the people of EN World.

Warning: This is nitpicking and over thinking an imaginary creature.

Oh and this is in D&D 3.5.

This thread will be a bit long, the primary subject is the "Living Construct". There is probably other threads about this but since not many people use tags, I can't really find them.
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I was thinking about Living Constructs and Craft Constructs ever since the DM allowed me to use a homemade "race":
Construct [Living Construct]
+2 Dex, +2 Int, -4 Cha (Thiefling stats with an additional -2 cha for being a construct)
-DarkVision 60ft
- +0 LA

[I did not want to over do it since the DM allowed me to do this, but some might think I did]
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So here we go. "Living Constructs" ["LC" for short from now on]:

1. Consumption. Apparently LCs can swallow things, since they can drink and eat magical potions and spells like heroic feast.
a) Would this mean that a LC does not have a digestive system including the Esophagus and the potions and consumable spells take effect instantly as it hit the back of the Oral Cavity.
b) They have a form of digestive system, and is just an artificial imitation of human digestive system? As in they can eat mundane foods but not gain any effect, or maybe even stash some items without bothering them?
AS IN: Do you guys think that LCs have guts?

2. Veins, Blood and Bleeding. Do they have a circulation system? Cause I read in on of the Eberron book that warforgeds have veins with some for of fluid flowing within.
If this is true the an LC might have something similar or would this just be more symbolic as in a LC has an energy core and the veins transport that energy to various parts of the LC. This would explain how LCs can suffer from bleed effects but this contradicts the fact the when an LC hits 0 HP or -1 to -9, the LC does not get worse.

- So what do you think about LC bleeding and not getting worse at -1 to -9 (or doing something at 0 HP)?

- In addition, what do you think powers the LC?

Removed part:
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3. Construct feats: Bah... they did not bother to make any since most golems in MM1 did not have INT scores meaning they could not learn.

4. Prestige Classes: Bah forget this there are no descent crafting prestige classes with full spell progression...and the Measter is Gnomes only.

5. -Removed-

6. -Removed-

7. Rest. -removed-
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Well that is all for now... I don't have any other problems or ideas for now.

Maybe you have some question or problems with Living Constructs, if yes the share it with us and we will talk about it.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I'm obviously unfamiliar with your homebrewed Living Construct, but I am familiar with the Warforged, so I will be answering your questions mostly from the reference point of that race. The only other official PC-usable living construct I'm familiar with is the Exiled Modoron.

1, 2 & 5: "Warforged appear as massive humanoids molded from a composite of materials- obsidian, iron, stone, darkwood, silver and organic material- though they move with surprising grace and flexibility. Flexable plates connected by fibrous bundles make up the body of a warforged..." Eberron Campaign Setting p.20-21
"Warforged are constructs, but they are not machines. Warforged have bodies composed of inorganic materials but also of living magic. In this way, warforged combine technology and magic in an unparalleled manner." Races of Eberron p.14.

1. There is not enough information to determine the details of the Warforged Digestive System. However, Since they'd only consume small amounts of substances and the primary affect of potions and Heroes Feast are magical, as well as parts of the Warforged body is magical, it's safe to assume there are no waste products to expel at the end, everything gets absorbed because its, well magic.
2. Due to the organic parts (Darkwood, fibrous bundles and such, graceful movements), there would be some form of circulatory system. Due to the percentage of inorganic parts however, damage to the fleshy parts is not as dramatic to those other races that are 100% fleshy. Stabilizing when below -1 makes sense to me.
5. And therefore, yes, pain would be felt.

Note the Reforged PrC in Races of Eberron p.161. While at level 3 they undergo a dramatic physical change, the first two levels also have changes regarding healing and such. I think the spirit behind the PrC is that there is more to the organic body of a Warforged then is given sufficient attention to.

3: Eberron Campaign Setting, Player's Guide to Eberron, Magic of Eberron & Races of Eberron have Warforged specific feats. These generally add construct features or modify armor.

4: Maester (Complete Adventurer p.56) if you can handwave the Gnome racial requirement.
Master Alchemist (Magic of Faerun p.34) & Alchemist Savant (Magic of Eberron p.53) both focus on potion goodness.
Runesmith (Races of Stone p.118) not exactly a crafting type, but makes spells that anyone can cast, kinda like magic items.

Two worth mentioning that do not progress spellcasting, but still do magical crafting, are Battlesmith (Races of Stone p.97) and Spellcarved Solder (Races of Eberron p.166) If you can ignore the Dwarf requirement for Battlesmith you can Craft Magical Arms and Armor with a caster level check class ability without actually needing access to spells. I think you still require someone else to provide the spell for the creation, so not very efficient. Spellcarved Solder is a Warforged only (I think you'd qualify) allow for the creation of runes that grant buffs to the Warforged.

6.a- I don't know of any RAW method a living construct can boost it's own HD. As a DM I'd not allow it for my PC's, however I might handwave it for an opponent without class levels as a variant of progression, IF I could find a way to justify it for the campaign.
6.b-I think they would gain all the negative effects of failing the save for the Half-Golem template, for the following reasons:
-"Many people who received one or more limbs through this process proved unable to withstand the trauma of transformation..." The process is traumatic, regardless of your base race.
-"as soon as the character fails one of these required saves...The character then has no constitution score and the character's type changes to construct..." The loss of a Constitution score eliminates the "Living" part of a living construct and does indeed change the base type of a living construct. This could be a dramatic enough change that could cause all the negative effects listed as this would effect any other race.
6.c- I'm not a homebrew kind of guy, But I'd like to point out that a Warforged (And I'd assume any other Living Construct PC race) can receive the benefits of ANY graft. See my post in this thread, third post down. When you consider all the possible grafts, you'll see that most of the imaginative ideas someone could come up with have already been covered in the various books referencing grafts.
Also, Warforged have components, items that can be added to or built into their bodies. An extensive list is here. Since your Living Construct is simmilar enough, I'd imagine you could apply most of these.

7. Check the SRD here to define "rest". according to this someone might be able to read a book for pleasure instead of study, but your other suggestions would be out.

 

[Ragmon]

Rumbletiger I thank you for you extensive reply.
1. Re-question: Do you think they have a guts?
2. But do you think they can bleed?
3. Yea it is very armor/fighter oriented, f.y.i. I don't even know about monster feats for constructs do you?
4. The Maester fits the bill but damn that Gnome requirement.
5. -
6.a - Now that I think about it increasing the HD would be stupid, since then you would gain Construct HD and it would further move you up the XP chart meaning you would need more and more XP to gain a new class level.
6.b - I see your point.
6.c - Nice, I might try to convert some of these ideas into construct components.
7. Nothing to say here...makes sense.

Well thnx very much.

To the other readers:
Some more feed back would be nice from the other guys too.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Rumbletiger I thank you for you extensive reply.
1. Re-question: Do you think they have a guts?
2. But do you think they can bleed?
3. Yea it is very armor/fighter oriented, f.y.i. I don't even know about monster feats for constructs do you?
4. The Maester fits the bill but damn that Gnome requirement.
5. -
6.a - Now that I think about it increasing the HD would be stupid, since then you would gain Construct HD and it would further move you up the XP chart meaning you would need more and more XP to gain a new class level.
6.b - I see your point.
6.c - Nice, I might try to convert some of these ideas into construct components.
7. Nothing to say here...makes sense.

1. I dunno, and I'd be ok with someone playing it either way. If I were to choose, I'd say yes, to allow a Warforged to be susceptible to parasite related things.
2. Also a DM call, I'd say yes so that a Warforged caster could qualify for the Blood Magus PrC.
3. Aside from Warforged specific, none that I know of.
4. Between you and the DM if you can handwave away the racial requirement.
Enjoy!

 

[Xakk]

RUMBLETiGER, Living Construct is right out of MM3, unless you're indicating significant differences between that template and what's presented here. Incarnate Construct is another template much the same, from SS, but I think that actually turns the construct into flesh,

Ragmon, I would imagine as a construct is supposed to be an efficient mechanism, substances would be absorbed directly into their circulatory system. As they are powered from a source other than nutrients(magic), and are immune to poisons and disease, they don't require a digestive system to break down nutrients or filter toxins and disease. Thus anything they consume can go directly into their circulatory system. I'm sure there is a mechanism in place to eliminate foreign substances from that just to keep it pure enough to work. If the construct doesn't have a circulatory system such as a warforged has, the structure of the construct probably allows absorbtion of the substance into the material as if it were porous, or perhaps the way magical and alchemical substances are constructed does.

About bleeding, as mentioned before constructs are more efficient than a biological organism. If it has a circulatory system in the first place, it probably has a system to bypass 'leaks' and/or shut down the damaged area. Thus constructs don't actually bleed out when critically damaged, they simply cease function till they are repaired. Just like organic beings, they die when their body cannot contain their life force anymore. But an organic body has to remain active to support life, whilst a construct body can become completely inert and still contain it, likely with the aid of magics. An interesting discussion would be the effects of disjunction on constructs.

I've never run into any feats that directly target constructs, though I've never looked. I'm sure there are plenty in Eberron books for Warforged. That said few feats (in 3.x) overall target based on race. They're supposed to be open to all characters, though requirements may suggest or enforce a certain race. That said, similarities between the two may mean a construct qualifies for many of the feats targetting undead as well. Look into it.

For the idea of modifying themselves, perhaps you could rule that a construct can apply grafts to themselves without the requisite feat, as they really don't have to worry about the interplay between two complex biological systems - Just bolt it on, use your craft construct feat to join the magic to the graft, and get going. The HP or ability cost would still apply of course. I would wonder if construct grafts would even require those.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

RUMBLETiGER, Living Construct is right out of MM3, unless you're indicating significant differences between that template and what's presented here. Incarnate Construct is another template much the same, from SS, but I think that actually turns the construct into flesh,

For sources indicating Warforged I was using Eberron Campaign setting and Races of Eberron. I know the Warforged are also in MM3, I just find those books have more info.
I am not aware of a Living Construct template, where can I find that?

As for Incarnate Construct, that's a really interesting idea, I never thought to apply that effect onto a Living Construct.

 

[Xakk]

I may have to apologize, since it turns out Living Construct is a subtype rather than a template, but then again I'm pretty sure there's a system in place to cut and paste those between monsters. On second thought, I'll call it even since you made me crack the books.

As I mentioned I don't know if Incarnate Construct would apply to this as that actually turns them flesh and reverses much of the effects of being a construct save being incredibly sturdy and built like, well, a machine. Always considered it for a fighter type. But still, fleshy.

 

[Ragmon]

Xakk -
Consumption
Ok, so if it filters and consumes the substance with 100% efficiency, still the mass needs to do somewhere.
- So either the LC eats and craps out the whole of the thing, and not use up any of the materials only the magical ones (potions and spells foods). Since the material cant go anywhere since LC do not heal naturally over time.
- But if they do absorb the materials where does it go? (and I mean rule wise).

Bleeding
Yea the part that the bleeding is just shut down does make sense then the LC is at 0,-1 to -9.
But what about normal bleed effects...Feats for rogues that give there sneak attacks bleeding effects.
You mention organic parts...makes sense....but I imagine that an LC is made up of non-organic parts that function as if they were organic. (leather for muscle, ceramic bones, silver for neural connections...ect)

Grafting
Yea ill just make stuff up.

Feats
I found out why there aren't any Construct feats, most of them don't have INT scores... meaning they cant learn. So I guess they did not bother make feats for constructs.... even to there are some with INT, some even have descent (12) INT.

 

[Ragmon]

Thus constructs don't actually bleed out when critically damaged, they simply cease function till they are repaired.

Emmm...constructs can not be critically hit.

 

[Xakk]

You know what I meant by critically damaged.

The mass doesn't really need to go somewhere. We're dealing with magic, not science. The spells making the thing function could easily be configured to eradicate every molecule into energy, or send the waste to the Quasi Elemental Plane of Ash, or transform it into a frost-thin layer of material which then settles on the outside of the thing. Doesn't have to make perfect sense.

As for bleeding, you're forgetting that constructs are ALSO immune to sneak attacks, since they can't be critically hit. I'm pretty sure that even bleeding effects not attached to a sneak attack (of which there are few) note not to use them on creatures with no anatomy.

You should try the grafts that are already in the books. There are quite a few here and there. I remember one construct graft (meant for biologicals, but whatever) that turns your bottom half into crushing tank treads. Yeah.

Also there's a PrC, the Starmetal Adept I think, that turns a PC into a construct at apotheosis. So there's another way.

Feats aren't just mental things. They also represent physical training, magical rituals, a trick that even a dog could pick up, or even some kind of alteration you made to yourself, not to mention feats that just represent aptitudes you have to begin with. Frex, the bloodline feats. You don't learn to be descended from a dragon, you just are. A golem with heavier than average arms could justify having Cleave because he just naturally cleaves.
Of course if your PC was a construct and had an Int bonus of - I would be interested to see how that's ruled to work with skill ranks per level. From what I remember, - is supposed to be a black hole of a bonus, multiplying all other bonuses by 0. Hm.