Pathfinder 1E Lifesense/Blindsight

[brunswick]

Hi folks,

I am currently running a 3.5 adventure using the Pathfinder rules and the player characters encountered a creature with Lifesense. To the best of my knowledge, a creature (a Dread Wraith) that has the Lifesense Extra-ordinary ability can also use its normal vision to see things but one of the players said that the Wraith couldnt see a golem in the room since it could only use it's life sense, which wouldnt work on the construct.

I can see the logic in an undead like a dread wraith only sensing life force but this seems like a poor trade off in these circumstances and I cant find any reference in the PF rules that prohibits the use of
normal vision if a creature has lifesense.


Does anyone know if this is specifically referenced in the PF rulebook and, if so, where?

Thanks,


Bruns.

 

[Cadence]

Hi folks,

I am currently running a 3.5 adventure using the Pathfinder rules and the player characters encountered a creature with Lifesense. To the best of my knowledge, a creature (a Dread Wraith) that has the Lifesense Extra-ordinary ability can also use its normal vision to see things but one of the players said that the Wraith couldnt see a golem in the room since it could only use it's life sense, which wouldnt work on the construct.

In both PF and 3.5 the undead type grants Darkvision 60 unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html#_undead and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType . Dread Wraiths particularly have darkvision in PF http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/wraith.html and 3.5 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm .

On the other hand, if they left Darkvision out, it sure does seem like they would be running into Golems and other things all the time!

 

[GMMichael]

Does anyone know if this is specifically referenced in the PF rulebook and, if so, where?

It's covered under rule zero.

Darkvision would, indeed, allow sensing golems. But you know how animals get jittery and flee when they know something's wrong? Wraiths probably do this when they can't see an enemy. On the other hand, what exactly does a wraith have to fear from a golem?

 

[Cadence]

It's covered under rule zero.

I'm confused why rule zero is needed, since the rules explicitly give the dread wraith both darkvision and lifesense in its stat block...

 

[gamerprinter]

As Cadence says.

But how does your GM get the idea that having lifesense, mean that you are are blind to non-living things? It doesn't state that anywhere, nor even suggest that's how things work. Your GM has some wonky ideas.

 

[GMMichael]

As Cadence says.

But how does your GM get the idea that having lifesense, mean that you are are blind to non-living things? It doesn't state that anywhere, nor even suggest that's how things work. Your GM has some wonky ideas.

Lifesense, as described here, does not refer to a creature being able to see anything other than "living creatures."

Darkvision AND lifesense are an interesting combination. Darkvision allows a dread wraith to see in the absence of light. Lifesense makes those living things, that the dread wraith is seeing in its darkvision, MORE visible. You could say the life forms glow in a field of grays.

There really should be a mention of whether lifesense is stopped by barriers or not. I vote no.

Also, from what does the dread wraith get its darkvision? It doesn't have eyes. It's just an image that -resembles- something with eyes. If the darkvision is just some inherent ability, why does the dread wraith have lifesense? Why does a wraith even need darkvision, when it has lifesense? It doesn't need to worry about running into walls, or anything.

I think Rule Zero is actually very relevant here, given the above considerations.

 

[Cadence]

There really should be a mention of whether lifesense is stopped by barriers or not.

Lifesense (Su) The creature notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability.


Blindsight (Ex) This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object.


Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

Also, from what does the dread wraith get its darkvision? It doesn't have eyes. It's just an image that -resembles- something with eyes. If the darkvision is just some inherent ability, why does the dread wraith have lifesense? Why does a wraith even need darkvision, when it has lifesense? It doesn't need to worry about running into walls, or anything.

Lifesense would let it see invisible living things, fog, magical darkness, and through some kinds of illusion.
Darkvision lets it tell there's a wall in front of it so that it shouldn't be surprised it can't see any life forms, see the other undead it likes to convort with, and see the address of the house it's about to enter.

SKR has a 3.5 rant on where Undead get that Darkvision from. (Although it may not be an entirely helpful rant.)