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<blockquote data-quote="Cain_the_Deceiver" data-source="post: 9342424" data-attributes="member: 7045715"><p>You're doing all this but you still have not explained what this "defacto level" IS, how it is quantified. Without that, it's literally just CR by a different name. You use ancient dragons as an example, but an ancient brass dragon (cr 20) is significantly weaker than an bronze dragon, and even more so an ancient black (both CR 21), and terribly weaker than an ancient red, who's marginally weaker than an ancient bronze (both CR 24). And what, pray tell, is an "Epic" level? How is it different than a "standard" level? If we're using levels as the "defacto", why are there more than one type of level?</p><p></p><p>Yes, lower CR does need sorting, and I would wager even higher than just CR1 and below (see the infamous intellect devourer at CR2). But who is going to do it and by what metric? You started off with just levels but now we have epic levels too, it's already starting to get more complicated.</p><p></p><p>Correct, two player characters at lvl 5 are not one character at level ten. But again, where is your metric? And just saying 'levels' means nothing without a consistent definition and result. You might as well call it jujubees. So no, it is not the math, unless you have and can show the math, and it equals out the same every time. You can't just claim that's what it is with no proof, this is math, not religion. And that's nothing to say of class, either. Is a lvl 5 cleric and a lvl 5 barbarian the same as a lv 5 wizard and a lvl 5 ranger? what about 2 lvl 5 warlocks? Where do they stand against a lvl 5 sorcerer and a lvl 5 monk? These are things I take into account when making an encounter for my players, even more so than any other metric. CR just gives me an approximate pool of creatures I can pull from without letting things get too wonky.</p><p></p><p>YES, xp would help, but how is xp being the fundamental unit worse than these "levels"? Surely not big maths, as it stands, that is certainly a shorter and less complicated metric than whatever your definition of levels, epic or otherwise, has yet to be shown as? And even think, it'd simplify the process, as both levels(player) and creature CR can both be directly transferred to XP, can't they? So how is "levels"(undefined) better?</p><p></p><p>CR Is not amazing, but I'd call it more than absolutely worthless, more of a jumping off point that is then refined. Using the XP system inherent to CR, it's more than an educated guess, not by much, sure, but do you have a proposed, on paper, working replacement, that includes all levelled players and NPC creatures? Not just your statement of "levels"(undefined) which are certainly at best as opaque as you claim the CR system to be, but an actual working, visible, explainable, repeatable system?</p><p></p><p>They did the math, and it was bad math, but at least they showed their work.</p><p>Where is yours?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cain_the_Deceiver, post: 9342424, member: 7045715"] You're doing all this but you still have not explained what this "defacto level" IS, how it is quantified. Without that, it's literally just CR by a different name. You use ancient dragons as an example, but an ancient brass dragon (cr 20) is significantly weaker than an bronze dragon, and even more so an ancient black (both CR 21), and terribly weaker than an ancient red, who's marginally weaker than an ancient bronze (both CR 24). And what, pray tell, is an "Epic" level? How is it different than a "standard" level? If we're using levels as the "defacto", why are there more than one type of level? Yes, lower CR does need sorting, and I would wager even higher than just CR1 and below (see the infamous intellect devourer at CR2). But who is going to do it and by what metric? You started off with just levels but now we have epic levels too, it's already starting to get more complicated. Correct, two player characters at lvl 5 are not one character at level ten. But again, where is your metric? And just saying 'levels' means nothing without a consistent definition and result. You might as well call it jujubees. So no, it is not the math, unless you have and can show the math, and it equals out the same every time. You can't just claim that's what it is with no proof, this is math, not religion. And that's nothing to say of class, either. Is a lvl 5 cleric and a lvl 5 barbarian the same as a lv 5 wizard and a lvl 5 ranger? what about 2 lvl 5 warlocks? Where do they stand against a lvl 5 sorcerer and a lvl 5 monk? These are things I take into account when making an encounter for my players, even more so than any other metric. CR just gives me an approximate pool of creatures I can pull from without letting things get too wonky. YES, xp would help, but how is xp being the fundamental unit worse than these "levels"? Surely not big maths, as it stands, that is certainly a shorter and less complicated metric than whatever your definition of levels, epic or otherwise, has yet to be shown as? And even think, it'd simplify the process, as both levels(player) and creature CR can both be directly transferred to XP, can't they? So how is "levels"(undefined) better? CR Is not amazing, but I'd call it more than absolutely worthless, more of a jumping off point that is then refined. Using the XP system inherent to CR, it's more than an educated guess, not by much, sure, but do you have a proposed, on paper, working replacement, that includes all levelled players and NPC creatures? Not just your statement of "levels"(undefined) which are certainly at best as opaque as you claim the CR system to be, but an actual working, visible, explainable, repeatable system? They did the math, and it was bad math, but at least they showed their work. Where is yours? [/QUOTE]
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