D&D 5E [Let's Read] Five Torches Deep

[Libertad]

The concept of RPGs that are “like Dungeons & Dragons, but X!” is a very dry well by late 2019. Straight clones of every major iteration of D&D are over 10 years old, while popular newer products attempt instead interesting and novel spins. The Nightmares Underneath is a cross between Darkest Dungeon and a fantasy Middle East where dungeons are otherworldly invaders of malevolent disposition. Wolves of God is B/X era D&D, but set in a fantasy Dark Ages England. Games like Troika! and The Ultraviolet Grasslands are very much their own systems, departing majorly from standard fantasy in favor of something closer to an acid trip. The OSR movement is moving to more novel boundaries in recent years. Whether or not this coincides with the public denouncing their more conservative and toxic holdovers in recent memory is a factor in which I’m unsure of, but wouldn’t be surprised if it’s helped their corner of the hobby chart new ground.

But there is an avenue the old-school crowd hasn’t really touched: making hybrid versions of old-school and newer-school systems. Dungeon Crawl Classics and Castles & Crusades came the closest in borrowing some 3rd Edition elements, but overall were very much their own systems. Five Torches Deep sought to strip down the mechanical chassis of 5th Edition to the bare bones, layering OSR muscle and sinew to make a rules-lite alternative. It’s more accurate to describe Five Torches Deep as a 5e clone than an OSR one. To what extent it’s successful in this endeavor, and whether it’s worth playing on its own apart from its existing influences, we’ll discuss in this review.

What Is This? covers the core concepts of 5TD and what it strives for in a handy single page. It seeks to make combat more dangerous than basic 5e, less predictable magic, and a greater emphasis on resource management while dungeon delving in the form of rations, light sources, and such. 5TD PCs are designed to be weaker than their 5e counterparts, notably in the HP and ability score generation. Bounded accuracy in the form of a D20 + modifier vs a DC, proficiency bonus, and ability modifiers are kept. But the DC for most things is a default 11 unless otherwise noted, which can make characters with higher scores quite competent in proficient fields.

Player Characters covers ability scores, race, and class. Scores are the same as in 5th Edition (although the max modifier is +4 at 18), although dropping to 0 in any causes death rather than unconsciousness. There are 4 races: humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings. They have no special abilities of their own besides the non-humans starting automatically with a 13 in 2 favored scores and rolling 2d6+3 in order for the other 4. Humans roll 3d6 in order for all 6 scores, but can swap the results of 2. Non-humans are restricted in their class choices, and need a 13 or better in classes with which they’re not traditionally associated. For example, a Halfling needs a 13 or higher Strength/Intelligence to be a Warrior or Mage, while an Elf needs a 13 or higher Strength/Wisdom to be a Warrior or Zealot. Given that their max in such scores can only be 15 due to the alternate rolling, races are heavily pushed into playing as certain class types.

I’m not really fond of this change. I understand that various OSR games often gated classes based on race, but even in Basic D&D virtually every race could be a Fighter or Thief, and it was more generally the ‘advanced’ classes like Paladin and Ranger which were humans-only. Additionally, nonhumans no longer have any unique features, which makes them less appealing options.

Leveling up takes longer than in 5th Edition, and the maximum level is 9. You level up to 2nd at 2,500 XP and it costs double the amount every level thereafter until 5th (20,000), at which point it’s 10k more for 6th, 20k for 7th, and 25k each for 8th and 9th.

There are four classes which fit the typical Warrior/Thief/Mage/Cleric fold, but the Cleric is renamed to Zealot. Every class is proficient in two ability checks plus 3 (or 4 if Thief) pseudo-skills known as proficient checks relevant to their class. They gain bonus proficient checks automatically from their subclass archetype. At 1st level they gain their starting HP plus automatic equipment. At 2nd, 5th, and 9th level each class gains a unique ability; at 3rd and 7th they gain access to an archetype and one of its features;* 4th, 6th, and 8th they gain a +1 to an ability score of choice.

*the archetype chosen at 7th must be the same as the one at 3rd, so no Warrior Barbarian/Rangers for you!

The initial skills and equipment are automatically chosen at 1st level, but with some allowance of choice for weapons and armor, and Sundries which represent miscellaneous equipment rolled randomly at a table in the back of the book.

One of the first things you’ll notice when reading Five Torches Deep is the layout. Every single page has everything relevant in one convenient spot, with nothing in the way of orphaned lines or half-empty columns. This is really helpful in navigation, and visually pleasant to read. However, when it comes to classes this brevity is a bit of a detriment, particularly in regards to archetypes.

The Warrior looks rather interesting, although I do spot some peculiarities. For being proficient in “will,” does this relate to willpower and thus resistance towards enchantment and similar features? The Warrior gets a Healer’s kit, but it doesn’t look like its initial checks and abilities cover that kind of thing. Is first aid training something in which all adventurers are presumed to know? The ability to counter in melee is pretty cool, and making bonus attacks is something we all expect from Fighters.

For archetypes the Fighter’s Order is really good: although discussed later, an Active Action is the equivalent of a normal Action,* and as such can grant bonus attacks/spells/etc during the round. “Immune to Weather” for the Ranger is rather broad, and does beg the question of if this means that they can avoid the effects of damaging hazards such as being able to swim normally in stormy seas or tank a lightning strike. As a GM this is one of the level-based choices so I’d rule as such, given that the brunt of danger is doing to be underground.

*there are 3 actions in Five Torches’ Deep: Active, Movement, and Quick.

The Thief is proficient in all kinds of weapons, which is interesting on account that this will include things such as polearms and heavier weapons. Being proficient in “tools” may mean that they’re sort of an omnidisciplinary craftsman beyond just thieves’ tools. Its core features are quite good, particularly the 5th level’s defensive ability. The Assassin’s “Stealth after Attack” option is really powerful; stealth is covered under Gameplay, but when you successfully Stealth no enemy effect or attack can directly target you for as long as you do not take any hostile action. The Bard’s ability to auto-detect magic can be helpful for avoiding supernatural traps and danger. The Rogue doesn’t get anything as amazing in comparison.

The Zealot is pretty much your old-school healbot cleric, but with a few nifty features. The 5th level ability may seem quite strong, but 5TD doesn’t have alignment and the “evil” tag is reserved purely for aberrant and supernatural foes and those who traffic with them. The “sadist” tag I presume is meant to make up for this given that ‘typical monsters’ such as bandits/goblins/orcs wouldn’t register but are typically portrayed as loving violence for its own sake.

For archetypes, there’s mention of turning undead, but it is its own spell now rather than an innate feature. “Advantage vs injury” is a bit broad; does this include checks to avoid injury of all types? To recover from? It may be very broad in this instance and a no-brainer choice depending on how the GM rules. The Druid’s wildskin left me sad; I get that such a broad feature is hard to consolidate in such a rules-lite system, but druids in other games are able to take the shapes of dangerous animals such as wolves and horses. In Five Torches Deep, they’re more or less confined to being very fragile scouts. The Paladin’s ‘advantage to help allies’ is similarly broad as the Cleric’s ‘advantage vs injury’ dilemma.

I’m a bit interested in what ‘finesse’ entails. In basic 5th Edition it was a weapon descriptor which allowed the use of Dexterity instead of Strength for attacks. Does this mean that 5TD mages are lithe and nimble? The ability to reduce damage is nice, but more limited than the Thief’s 5th level equivalent. Auto-dispelling spells is a good utility feature, but given its time limit is not something of use in combat. The 9th level capstone is very powerful on account that cantrips function the same in 5TD as in 5e: an at-will ability.

For archetypes the Sorcerer and Wizard get some very nice features. Quickcast means that you may be able to cast 2 spells during the same round which can be useful for a variety of cases, while doubling area and duration is also good. There are no stats for familiars, so I am unsure to what extent they’d be treated as a Retainer. The Warlock is clearly meant to be a more ‘martial mage’ but given the class’ terrible HP is an inferior option. The ability to deal bonus damage by inflicting it on yourself may have uses, but spells in 5TD overall avoid direct damage save for a few, making the Warlock more limited in utility than the other archetypes.

Equipment is highly simplified in 5 Torches Deep. Armor and Weapons of all kinds are consolidated into a few clear categories. Light Armor, Heavy Armor, and Shields which grant levels of protection and can only be used by certain classes. Heavy Armor imposes disadvantage on Stealth and stamina checks, unlike 5th Edition where it’s just the former. Melee and Ranged weapons are separated into Simple and Martial categories, which have larger damage entries depending on how they’re gripped. The base die type for simple weapons are d6, martial d10. Two-handed weapons deal one die type higher for damage, but wielding a one-handed weapon in 2 hands allows you to roll the base damage die twice and keep the best result. Some melee weapons have reach of 10 feet, and ranged weapons can hit anywhere from 15 to 300 feet depending on what makes sense but impose disadvantage in melee.

Weight is calculated differently in 5 Torches Deep. Everything is measured in Load, where 1 Load measures any object around 5 pounds. PCs can carry Load equal to their Strength score, and reduce their speed by 5 feet for every 1 Load above this value along with disadvantage on all checks. Being encumbered is something you really don’t want to have happen to you!

What about smaller items and bundles, as well as multi-use items? Well this is handled as Supply, or SUP for short! Instead of tracking individual arrows, lockpicks, torches, etc, a PC announces what kinds of equipment they seek to stock up on before their next adventure. Their SUP is determined by their Intelligence score and can be spent to refresh kits, get one more lockpick when your current set breaks, have a handy potion on hand, refill your lantern/quiver, etc. There’s a nice table of how much SUP things cost, although a few pieces of equipment such as Alchemical Grenade, Dragon’s Breath Bomb, and Quicksilver are mighty costly (5 to 9) but are never mentioned again in this book. Foraging in the wilderness can restore SUP with DC 11 and 1 hour worth of time.

We get 3 new rules for less common cases of gear. You attune magic items much like in 5th Edition, but the primary limit on the amount you can attune at once is equal to your Charisma modifier. For equipment, gear has a Durability score from 1 to 5, and said score reduces by 1 when said items are put in stressful situations or damaged on a critical hit in combat. Shields are very useful in this regard, for they can automatically block the damage of an appropriate attack in exchange for losing Durability. As shields have 2 Durability, this makes them super-useful for dodging certain death. Our final rule involves repairing and crafting items; the former allows one to restore Durability if the person is proficient in the proper tools and takes 1 hour per attempt (usually during a rest), and Crafting is a more involved 4 step process where an item is built but takes half a day of work per stage and attempt.

Overall I like these equipment rules, especially for Supply. Shields in 5 Torches Deep are incredibly useful and allow PCs a safe means of avoiding one-hit kills particularly at low level. That every class is proficient in them means that virtually every party will have a few on hand.

 

[Libertad]

Gameplay covers the nitty-gritty of the system, notably where it differs from 5th Edition. Saving throws are now consolidated into ability checks, and skills are now known as “proficient checks” gained from class and archetype. There are 3 types of actions, each of which a character can do once in a round. Active actions cover most of what would be normal Actions in 5th Edition, while Quick Actions cover what would be bonus actions and reactions. Drawing items and weapons, maintaining concentration on spells, and readied actions are now Quick Actions. Finally Movement is its own type of action; it can be broken up in segments when used for normal movement as part of another type of action. Initiative is never rolled, and people go in order based upon their Dexterity scores barring ambushes. For critical hits, the entire damage is doubled rather than just the damage dice, while rolling a natural 1 when resisting a damage effect doubles the damage as a result.

Healing is similar in a few regards, but the biggest change is that you no longer spend Hit Dice to heal. Rests are divided based on where they take place and represent a night’s worth rather than 1 or 8 hours. Safe rests restore your level in HP, while Unsafe Rests inside dungeons, in the wilderness, etc restore a mere 1 HP. Characters reduced to 0 HP become unconscious and die in 1 minute or by the end of the fight (whichever is sooner) if not stabilized in time. The 0 HP rule makes 5TD PCs much hardier than their OSR counterparts, but falling to 0 HP still has consequences even when you recover. There’s a 1d20 table of various effects, mostly 1d6 ability score damage,* and only a natural 20 has a positive result where you heal 1d8 HP due to a speedy recovery.

*which can also be caused by disease and poison and takes several weeks to cure unless magic is used to speed the process.

For smaller various rules, NPCs and monsters roll for morale (Wisdom modifier plus morale bonus plus proficiency if a brave type of character), and traps cannot be found on a skill roll but based on players describing how they interact with the environment.* The primary means of gaining experience points is based on how much GP is taken back to a safe haven, and enemies typically have 1d20 times their Hit Dice in GP worth of loot. Magic items can also grant XP equal to their monetary value...but in 5th Edition magic items no longer have an attached cost to them, and 5TD gives no example values.

*albeit the text states that the GM must forewarn all traps via narrative cues, no matter how well-concealed the trap’s designer may have otherwise made them.

For the dungeon-crawling aspects of rules, we have several meant to simulate old-school resource management. Travel Turns represent every hour spent in a dungeon or unsafe area, and torches and lanterns can last 1 to 3 turns. Every Travel Turn that passes the GM rolls a d20, the lower the result the more disastrous the event which occurs, ranging from random encounters and traps to environmental catastrophes. An 11 to 19 gives the PCs time to prepare in some way for a danger, while a 20 is safe in that nothing bad occurs. PCs also have a new feature: Resilience, which is equal to their Constitution score and represents the number of hours they can remain active while traveling without needing rest. Every hour beyond that forces a check of increasing DC, and failure causes Exhaustion, with further failures causing actual HP damage. Exhaustion is still debilitating, and is all or nothing rather than the 6-level gradient in normal 5e. It reduces your speed to 0 and you cannot perform any significant actions including combat and magic. Exhaustion is only healed via a Safe Rest or by magic.

There are also rules for chasing foes and running away from combat, as well as Rolling to Return for times when the GM doesn’t want to roleplay the PCs exiting a dungeon or making it back to civilization in detail. For chases the pursuer uses Strength or Dexterity based on the terrain, and the DC is 1 greater than 11 for every 5 feet of speed the one being chased has over 30 feet. For PCs and their retainers retreating from combat, they can give up their turn’s worth of actions to make a retreat, which fails automatically if they are damaged or stopped by an enemy. The Chase rules are used if foes pursue them further and are able to outmaneuver any PCs/Retainers that are remaining in combat.

Rolling to Return is a DC 10 check which increases by 1 for every Travel Turn that has passed to a maximum of DC 20. The check can differ depending on circumstances, and failure causes the PC to either take 1d6 damage for every value of 1 they failed the DC, or they lose 1 Load worth of equipment. Those reduced to 0 HP somehow died or fell unconscious due to the arduous journey, and less-secure and valuable equipment is targeted first.

The rules overall do a good job of simulating an ‘old school feel,’ plus or minus a few hiccups. I do feel that the danger from Travel Turns is a bit too high in terms of trigger frequency, and ability score damage is something that neither 5th Edition nor most OSR games have and will thus create additional book-keeping. I do like how there are rules for chases and fleeing, as many OSR games emphasize knowing when to retreat. But if a monster is fast and mobile enough, a lot of times it is impossible unless one PC valiantly holds them off or the DM is merciful in some way like the monster being too big to fit in a smaller tunnel. The Resilience score feels a bit unnecessary, as its all-or-nothing state means that most PCs will play it safe so they don’t have to worry about lugging around a defenseless party member who will be worth a naughty word-ton of Load all their own.

Magic is greatly simplified in comparison to 5th Edition, with a few changes in place. Both Zealots and Mages are akin to sorcerers in that they automatically know a number of spells based on level, and use a unified table to determine how many spells they can cast per day. Casters also know 3 cantrips, and any known spell can be cast as a Ritual which takes 1 hour per spell level to cast in this way but obviates the need for a casting check.* Speaking of which, casters now roll a Spellcasting check equal to DC 10 + spell level, adding their relevant ability modifier and proficiency bonus. A failure causes a Magical Mishap, which is a d20 table of various negative qualities ranging from affecting the wrong target, the caster taking damage, an orb of light blinds the caster and nearby creatures, etc. Concentration spells function similarly as they do in 5th Edition, but any form of damage or distracting effect automatically causes the spell to be lost rather than the caster getting an opportunity to resist and maintain it. Finally, certain items can act as a Magic Focus, which eliminates the need to use material components and/or have one hand free in order to cast a spell. Nice!

*unlike normal 5th Edition where it doesn’t cost a spell slot to use.

We have a discussion on converting spells and magic items from other games. Generally speaking Five Torches Deep discourages converting direct damage spells, and no cantrips should cause damage. Spells which target enemies are treated as an attack roll (or in some cases an appropriate check) rather than the enemy resisting with a DC. Scrolls can only be used by spellcasters and require a check, and wands can be used by noncasters but use Charisma to determine checks and damage. Consumable items never require attunement, and all magic items must have their features identified before they can be used.

We get 2 pages detailing all of the Zealot and Mage spells in Five Torches Deep. They are very minimalistic, with an entire levels’ worth easily fitting on an index card:

The casters of Five Torches Deep are much less versatile than 5th Edition in what they can do. The Mage only has 2 spells out of 25 which deal direct damage, and most of their features are some form of utility. The Abjure spell is really useful, as is Charm, and Astral Rift’s object transportation has quite a bit of uses. I am a bit sad that classic standbys such as Fireball and Lightning Bolt are not present.

The Zealot has the typical cleric abilities, and I do like how the various healing spells can work at range rather than touch which is a big step up from 5th Edition’s Cure Wounds. The specification of “evil targets” isn’t as useful as one would normally think given how said descriptor is more restrictive in Five Torches Deep.

NPCs & Monsters is self-explanatory. For the NPC side of things we talk entirely about Retainers and Henches. Retainers are NPC allies the party can hire on to aid them during adventures, and Henches are higher HD trusted allies who work for free. Both types are limited in how many can accompany one PC based on their Charisma score, with Henches based on level and Charisma. Retainers cost 10 GP per Hit Die per level per day of work, and add their proficiency bonus to their Hit Die for tasks in which they are skilled. PCs can give Orders to Retainers in combat as an active action, allowing all of the Retainers/Henches under their command to do a single special action. Charge order causes them to move forward and attack, Form Up grants +2 AC until their next turn, Focus Fire gangs up on one opponent, and Retainers unable to follow orders can still act independently.

There’s also brief rules for Renown and Reactions; the former determines how likely NPCs are to recognize the party, while the latter determines an NPC’s initial first impression with a higher result on a d20 indicating a more positive impression. The latter is a particularly common old-school rule, but is a bit odd to use in that it makes social results at the mercy of the die rather than the other way around of PC actions determining NPC reactions.

For Monsters, this also includes wicked humans but the overlying rules remain the same. Monsters are grouped based on their role (Brute, Leader, Sniper, etc) rather than their type or species for determining what they’re good at. Abilities, saves, skills, etc are divided into Weak, Normal, and Strong Categories depending on the monster’s areas of expertise. We have a table for these modifiers along with Hit Dice, average HP, and average damage, while their Armor Class is 10 + their most relevant modifier depending on how nimble/sturdy/etc they are.

Monsters also have a list of sample Techniques to choose from, ranging from 0 to 3 based on how strong they are (‘bosses’ have more than ‘mooks’). The sample Techniques are rather broad in application and can cover a wide variety of attacks, spells, and the like.

We have new rules in this chapter as well. Monster Hoards serve as the most protected treasure in a dungeon and are equal to 1,000 times the Hit Dice of the strongest monster. For alignment of both NPCs and monsters, Five Torches Deep ignores it entirely save for Evil. “Evil” in this case represents the physical manifestation of otherworldly corruption and those who willingly give themselves to it. Evil is thus only appropriate for demons, necromancers, undead, and the like. Creatures who do not fit this criteria cannot be “Evil,” now matter how wicked and destructive they may be.

We get a discussion of how to convert monsters and NPCs from 5th Edition and OSR games. For the former ruleset, Five Torches Deep claims that stats can be used as-is save that hit points should be halved due to this book’s lower-powered nature. OSR monsters determine their Armor Class via 20 minus the Descending value (AC 6 becomes AC 14) with negative AC becoming AC 20. Monsters who “attack as Fighters”* use the Brute category for seeing how skilled they are in regards to physical actions and attacks. For determining Dexterity for initiative, the value from a 5th Edition monster can be used, but for an OSR monster their Hit Dice + 10 determines their effective DEX for turn order in combat.

*which interestingly is most monsters in B/X era retroclones.

Our section ends on general advice for how to use these rules to build your own monsters, along with six sample ones whose stat blocks can each easily fit on an index card.

I do feel that the custom creation rules are simpler and in line with 5TD’s ethos, and I particularly like how monsters are grouped by roles rather than the typical types of dragon/fey/etc for determining important core statistics. What I am iffy on is how easy conversion from other systems will be, particularly for 5th Edition. 5TD PCs are much more fragile and with less means of regaining hit points, so monsters with damaging double digit values can be much more deadly than their Challenge Rating in the base game would indicate. Legendary Actions, Lair Actions, and actual spellcasting can up this threat even further, and given that quite a few monsters have abilities keying off of Conditions which don’t have hard and fast rules in Five Torches Deep, this is a complicating factor for the GM.

Running the Game covers generic advice for Dungeon Masters. A lot of it is things we’ve already read about elsewhere, such as how to space out threats and obstacles and creating a stable of allies and enemies for the party. We also have a Generator for creating adventure/plot ideas on the fly, with entries for Things, Actions, and Fallout along with Descriptors for subjects like treasure, emotion, etc in case more specifics are needed.

But the novel feature that sticks out is using a Rubix Cube to generate random maps, with the colors on one side corresponding to room type: white is open path/entrance, orange has danger of some kind, green has treasure or an important feature, etc. If the GM doesn’t have such a cube they can roll 9d6 and convert each die’s result and placement based on the colors. Sounds rather nifty, but can’t state how straightforward this is in play.

Our book ends with a 2-page Quick Reference summing up the major rules for Five Torches Deep and a 1d20 Sundries table for random equipment. Our very last page has a custom character sheet with just enough space to neatly pack in every little detail.

Final Thoughts: Five Torches Deep is a 5th Edition variant with some interesting ideas. But as a wholesale system I cannot really see the appeal in comparison to the ones from which it takes inspiration. There’s also the fact that it’s incomplete in several areas; no sample treasures and magic items are a big negative, and for monsters we’re heavily encouraged to borrow from sourcebooks of other systems. The book also presumes that players are already familiar with 5th Edition and want an old-school experience, so it can’t really be run as an “entry point” to 5e. As a means of easing in 5e players to an OSR game, it does ape the playstyle in certain areas but is a far shot from the real thing. Cost and readability isn’t an issue when so many retroclones are legally free and rules-lite, so this book primarily appeals to 5e players who want to play another kind of D&D but don’t want to learn a new set of rules...which is a bit of a moot point when Five Torches Deep changes its parent system’s mechanics in quite a few large ways. Even then, it does have a demand, as it is a Best Mithral Seller on Drive-Thru RPG. For those unfamiliar with that category, it includes the top 0.22% percent of best-selling products on the entire website.

I admit that I’m not entirely sure what book I’m going to review after this. My remaining options for 5th Edition are far longer than the ones I covered, so it’ll take some reading on my part to get familiarized enough for another in-depth review.

 

[Islayre d'Argolh]

So, just to be sure :

"Melee and Ranged weapons are separated into Simple and Martial categories, which have larger damage entries depending on how they’re gripped. The base die type for simple weapons are d6, martial d10. Two-handed weapons deal one die type higher for damage, but wielding a one-handed weapon in 2 hands allows you to roll the base damage die twice and keep the best result."

By using a greatsword or greataxe you're rolling a d12 (6.5 damage) and by using a longsword or battleaxe two handed you're rolling 2d10 and keep the best result (7.15 damage) ?

 

[Lem23]

Fireball = Furyfire.

Also, in basic D&D, there were races as classes, so you never got any dwarven clerics, halfling mages, or whatever. That all came with AD&D.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Fireball = Furyfire.

Also, in basic D&D, there were races as classes, so you never got any dwarven clerics, halfling mages, or whatever. That all came with AD&D.

That's true for BD&D, but not OD&D, which predated BD&D. In OD&D, for example, an Elf was either an MU or a Fighter, not the hybrid they are in BD&D.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But as a wholesale system I cannot really see the appeal in comparison to the ones from which it takes inspiration.

Yeah from the description this is a lot less interesting than I had expected. I mean, what I was expecting, and what I expect most people on DriveThru expect (hence its success) was a cut-down 5E variant with relatively minor mechanical changes, and just more of a focus on survival elements (rations, torches, equipment in general, etc.), dungeon-delving, and maybe some grim/gritty-type rules, but where most of your basic rules assumptions about D&D in general, or 5E specifically, would basically remain true.

Whereas this sounds like it's a fairly massively different and significantly incomplete product. You can't just go from running 5E to running this, because it changes almost every rule, and seemingly unnecessarily in a lot of cases, and as you say, it doesn't actually hew that close to a old of actual old-school products.

Slightly disappointing, really. I suspect if I wanted to run something old-school and "count the torches"-esque, I'd run an actual OSR game or Torchbearer instead.

 

[Lem23]

That's true for BD&D, but not OD&D, which predated BD&D. In OD&D, for example, an Elf was either an MU or a Fighter, not the hybrid they are in BD&D.

The part I was replying to was:

I understand that various OSR games often gated classes based on race, but even in Basic D&D virtually every race could be a Fighter or Thief, and it was more generally the ‘advanced’ classes like Paladin and Ranger which were humans-only.

 

[Fenris-77]

I haven't had any difficulties adapting 5E product for 5TD yet, but I am still in the messing about phase. Converting things over has generally been pretty trivially easy, or unnecessary.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I'm curious about Five Torches Deep, but two things have held me back so far. One, the spell caster checks. I tend not to like those in my D&D-ish games. The other is that they skipped monsters, essentially telling DMs to build their own or just convert from elsewhere.

On the converse, I really like how they've reconfigured the classes and the Supply rules.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It actually sounds pretty appealing; I like that style of play.

It also sounds like they maybe changed more rules that they really needed to, and each change just raises the barrier to entry by that much more.

I'm all for adjusting the rules to get a specific style of play, but I think as a designer it takes a lot of discipline to distinguish between features that contribute to the theme, and your own private wish-list of how it ought to be. I see a lot of the latter (or that's what I suspect) in 5e variants.