Kruthik Hivemind: What were they thinking?

[Chris_Nightwing]

Does anyone else have experience of fighting a Kruthik Hivemind? Our party of 6 4th level characters (Fighter, Warlock, Ranger, Warlord, Cleric and Wizard) faced one with some Kruthik Adults too. Obviously this was a difficult encounter, given our level, but it was a battle we just couldn't win without intervention, and one character still died. Perhaps we were rubbish, but my criticism is the Hivemind's aura ability: what were they thinking? Double damage, in 4e, is absolutely absurd, giving up to 32 allies attacks equivalent to monsters of several levels higher AND it has a blast weapon that deals ongoing damage AND weakens, leaving the party with 1/4 the firepower of the monsters!

I can see that at 6th level you'll have another two powers to draw on, but we already throwing every power, action point and potion we had at the thing just to survive. Further, this encounter made me think about 4e monster design. Elites are worth 2 normal monsters, Solos are worth 4 normal monsters. However, it's deliberate that Elites and Solos are more of a challenge than just their XP value would indicate - this is quite frustrating for a DM finding his feet with the encounter system, so shouldn't they be worth a little more than their current XP? Particularly Solos with 5x HP, 2 action points (more than the PCs can use), a save bonus to make rider effects less useful, improved defenses and more powerful or frequent attacks. They make for great final battles, but then the reward is such a let down!

 

[SableWyvern]

Hmm...

I plan to be sending a 4th level group up against a hive lord soon ... I'll be watching this thread with interest.

 

[DracoSuave]

This is a lot of over-reaction.

Looking at the other two level 2 brutes, you have:

Zombie: +6 vs AC, 2d6+2 damage (average damage 9)
Guard Drake: +6 vs AC, 1d10+3, 1d10+9 near any ally (average damage 8.5-14.5

Kruthik Young: +5 vs AC, 1d8+2 (average damage 6)

Other level 4 brutes:

Orc Berserker: +8 vs AC 1d12+5 (11.5 damage, plus high crit)
Human Berserker: +7 vs AC 1d12+4 (10.5)
Magma Claw: +7 vs AC 1d6+4 + 1d6 fire (10 damage)

Kruthik Adult: +8 vs AC, 1d10+3; 8.5 average


The Kruthiks, as brutes, do damage that is not in line with other brutes of equivalent level. The -real- threat in a Kruthik encounter comes from the Hive Lord, which is a level 6 leader. Yes, they'll make the Adults do 16.5 average damage, but the young will be doing damage in line with the brutes of that level. Hell, the guard drake is more threatening than the Kruthik Hiveminded menace, and is far less fragile

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

This is a lot of over-reaction.

Looking at the other two level 2 brutes, you have:

Zombie: +6 vs AC, 2d6+2 damage (average damage 9)
Guard Drake: +6 vs AC, 1d10+3, 1d10+9 near any ally (average damage 8.5-14.5

Kruthik Young: +5 vs AC, 1d8+2 (average damage 6)

Other level 4 brutes:

Orc Berserker: +8 vs AC 1d12+5 (11.5 damage, plus high crit)
Human Berserker: +7 vs AC 1d12+4 (10.5)
Magma Claw: +7 vs AC 1d6+4 + 1d6 fire (10 damage)

Kruthik Adult: +8 vs AC, 1d10+3; 8.5 average


The Kruthiks, as brutes, do damage that is not in line with other brutes of equivalent level. The -real- threat in a Kruthik encounter comes from the Hive Lord, which is a level 6 leader. Yes, they'll make the Adults do 16.5 average damage, but the young will be doing damage in line with the brutes of that level. Hell, the guard drake is more threatening than the Kruthik Hiveminded menace, and is far less fragile

The adults are indeed, comparable for their level. It's the Hivelord effect that I am questioning - in particular note that their minimum damage goes to 8, which is their usual average damage. Dishing out an average of 17 per hit is worse than a normal critical for them. The power increase is phenomenal!

 

[DracoSuave]

The adults are indeed, comparable for their level. It's the Hivelord effect that I am questioning - in particular note that their minimum damage goes to 8, which is their usual average damage. Dishing out an average of 17 per hit is worse than a normal critical for them. The power increase is phenomenal!

The adults are a little under-damaging for their level, as is the Hive-lord, actually. For an elite it does damage comparable to ordinary monsters of lesser level. It's the ability to increase the damage of its underlings that make it a bona-fide threat, combined with its durability. Mind you, for an -level 6 elite- it isn't that durable at all. And the actual brutes themselves are made of paper. AC 17 is terrible for a level 4 critter. Their Fortitude and Will are even worse. Plus, as a Level 6 elite, it uses up a large portion of the XP budget for the encounter, which means your not going to see them in level 4 groups very often.


They are at most a credible threat, but they're not gamebreaking. A Hivelord is the only way to make Kruthiks a viable encounter worth playing.

 

[Aloïsius]

They are at most a credible threat, but they're not gamebreaking. A Hivelord is the only way to make Kruthiks a viable encounter worth playing.

Huh ? I had to fudge the dice to save my players from the ambush krutikhs in scales of war : rescue at rivenroar. And they survived only because one of them rolled a 20 on his save vs death and was thus able to heal the others.

 

[DracoSuave]

Huh ? I had to fudge the dice to save my players from the ambush krutikhs in scales of war : rescue at rivenroar. And they survived only because one of them rolled a 20 on his save vs death and was thus able to heal the others.

Be thankful then it wasn't 4 zombies or 4 guard drakes.

Krutikhs are not as powerful as brutes of equivalent level. The math sits there, glares at you, and screams this fact out. I'm not convinced.

That said, a level 2 encounter -should- be troublesome for a level 1 party.

Of course, 125X2 + 175X2 + 31X4 = 250 + 350+ 124= 725XP, which is just short of a level 3 encounter. I expect a party of level 1 characters to have a challenge here. I also expect them to be thankful it was Kruthiks and not Drakes, or Zombies.

 

[Mengu]

Mind you, for an -level 6 elite- it isn't that durable at all.

Compared to other Level 6 controllers, it has better defenses except Will. And it has an at-will weakening power that hits multiple targets. How is he not durable?

And the actual brutes themselves are made of paper. AC 17 is terrible for a level 4 critter. Their Fortitude and Will are even worse.

Brutes aren't supposed to be difficult to hit. They are supposed to hit hard, and have good hit points. Having said that, compared to Human Berserkers and Orc Berserkers (other level 4 Brutes), they have better AC.

Plus, as a Level 6 elite, it uses up a large portion of the XP budget for the encounter, which means your not going to see them in level 4 groups very often.

For the mentioned group of 6, the xp budget for a level+2 encounter (a very reasonable hard encounter) is 1500 points. You can fit the Hive Lord, 3 Adults, 2 Young, and 7-8 Hatchlings in there.

A Hivelord is the only way to make Kruthiks a viable encounter worth playing.

Any large group of kruthiks can wear down a party. They won't be deadly, but the aura damage can very easily add up to a healing surge or three. Also due to their burrowing and climbing, alongside other monsters, they could be used as Lurkers, popping out of the ground the second round of combat to catch a Wizard or Warlock off guard.

I'm not sure if the Hive Lord is too powerful or not, I'll have to run a test. But between the aura and the potent blast that targets only enemies, I'm a bit concerned.

 

[mattdm]

However, it's deliberate that Elites and Solos are more of a challenge than just their XP value would indicate - this is quite frustrating for a DM finding his feet with the encounter system, so shouldn't they be worth a little more than their current XP? Particularly Solos with 5x HP, 2 action points (more than the PCs can use), a save bonus to make rider effects less useful, improved defenses and more powerful or frequent attacks. They make for great final battles, but then the reward is such a let down!

There's an easy solution here: tie final battle resolution to a quest completion, which means it's worth the XP of two encounters — double XP for your boss.

 

[Wraith101]

This sounds like a perfect opportunity to introduce the players to the idea of 'running away'.

I know that sounds a bit radical but . . .