Is Wall of Thorns as utterly broken as it seems to be?

[IndyPendant]

Wall of Thorns
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Drd 5, Plant 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Wall of thorny brush, up to one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
A wall of thorns spell creates a barrier of very tough, pliable, tangled brush bearing needle-sharp thorns as long as a human’s finger. Any creature forced into or attempting to move through a wall of thorns takes slashing damage per round of movement equal to 25 minus the creature’s AC. Dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC do not count for this calculation. (Creatures with an Armor Class of 25 or higher, without considering Dexterity and dodge bonuses, take no damage from contact with the wall.)
You can make the wall as thin as 5 feet thick, which allows you to shape the wall as a number of 10-by-10-by-5-foot blocks equal to twice your caster level. This has no effect on the damage dealt by the thorns, but any creature attempting to break through takes that much less time to force its way through the barrier.
Creatures can force their way slowly through the wall by making a Strength check as a full-round action. For every 5 points by which the check exceeds 20, a creature moves 5 feet (up to a maximum distance equal to its normal land speed). Of course, moving or attempting to move through the thorns incurs damage as described above. A creature trapped in the thorns can choose to remain motionless in order to avoid taking any more damage.
Any creature within the area of the spell when it is cast takes damage as if it had moved into the wall and is caught inside. In order to escape, it must attempt to push its way free, or it can wait until the spell ends. Creatures with the ability to pass through overgrown areas unhindered can pass through a wall of thorns at normal speed without taking damage.
A wall of thorns can be breached by slow work with edged weapons. Chopping away at the wall creates a safe passage 1 foot deep for every 10 minutes of work. Normal fire cannot harm the barrier, but magical fire burns it away in 10 minutes.
Despite its appearance, a wall of thorns is not actually a living plant, and thus is unaffected by spells that affect plants.

Druid cast this spell for the first time today. And I ruled it blocked LoS but not AoE. --And then, shortly afterward, jaw dropped, called wrapup cuz the enemy could do nothing. They were fighting Salamanders! And two nobles! (Who btw had already used up their dispels.)

And we discussed the spell. And I decided to rule that a) it did not block LoS or AoE at all, and b) it would be treated as a plant for the purposes of calcing HPs and how things like fire affected it, but still not actually be a plant. And I'm not even sure I like that as balanced.

But...am I missing something? Why haven't I been warned about this spell? Basically, it's a shapeable AoE Resilient Sphere. Even if it doesn't block LoS, it's almost impossible for anything to move through it as written. If you're in it, you're pretty much stuck right where you are, permanently. You have to have a 20 Str, and roll a nat20, just to move 5'--and you take damage just for trying?!? Spell resistance doesn't apply, it lasts for a minimum of 1.5 *hours*, no save...

Cast this spell, and everyone stays right where they are. You can't even burn it up, RAW, cuz it's pretty much immune to fire, even magical fire. The salamanders were instantly made helpless by...a bunch of brush.

I mean, seriously. Wtf? Am I missing something here? How exactly is this spell not through-the-stratosphere overpowered?

 

[Grogtar]

Well unfortuantly I cant offer much help. A few things though :

1. Its a druid or Plant Domain spell. Pretty damn restricted. As a GM friend of mine says "Dont attack a druid in the forest"

2. You can allways just jump / fly / teleport over it. Hell, maybe you can climb it. Its got those long, usefull thorns you know.

3. Its 5th level. 5th level spells are very, very ugly. I mean look at Cloudkill (totally sick) or perhaps Wall of Force.

Having said those things. I wouldnt allow it. I'd say "I think thats just a bit over the top in terms of spells. Im going to say thats not available in setting. If you want to work out somthing similar, we can, but for now its off limits"

<edit - another idea>

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't see any reason the Wall of Thorns would block line of sight or line of effect, though a DM might ad hoc a House Rule that it did so, based on his own personal thought on how the wall might look.

The spell isn't really overpowered. Compare it to Wall of Force which does no damage, but is completely immune to harm save for a Rod of Cancellation or Disintegrate. Wall of Force even blocks ethereal travel, which the Wall of Thorns certainly does not.

How does one get out of the Wall? A wizard/sorcerer teleports out. Teleport is also a 5th-level spell, and the description of Wall of Thorns mentions nothing about interfering with spellcasting, even in the very center of the thorns. Or he might attempt to dispel the Wall entirely.

A cleric could dispel the Wall. If he has the Travel domain, he might also teleport out of the Wall. I would also rule that the Travel cleric's freedom of movement domain power is effective against the Wall, allowing him to expend rounds of the Travel domain power to completely ignore the wall's inhibition to movement. And if 5th-level spells are being slung around, the cleric is likely to have better than a 25 AC, so he's probably not going to take damage.

Fighters and barbarians likewise probably have greater than 25 AC, so they won't be taking damage from the spell. They might also have a high enough strength to make a feasible attempt to break out. If not, and they don't have a helm of teleportation or any other such nifty item, they're stuck.

Druids of level 2+ and rangers of level 7+ are immune to the spell thanks to Woodland Stride (Ex).

Rogues and monks are screwed. But then, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Some spells are going to be more deadly versus certain classes.

Now, from the other side of it, most "melee brute" critters are A) going to have a good deal of natural armor, and possibly an AC of 25 or better (negating the damage of the spell) and very high strengths, meaning they can possibly push through the wall.

All this having been said, it's a good spell, particularly if you shape it to try and catch as many foes as possible within it right from the get-go. But it's not particularly overpowered, IMO.

 

[Bauglir]

Fighters and barbarians likewise probably have greater than 25 AC, so they won't be taking damage from the spell.

Excluding dex & dodge bonuses? At around level 9-10 (since WoT is a 5th level spell) it's possible certainly but I wouldn't say probable. Especially for the barbarian. Even with a high strength they will likely be stuck in the wall for at least a few rounds, getting pummeled by ranged spells and attacks from the druid's party.

Druids of level 2+ and rangers of level 7+ are immune to the spell thanks to Woodland Stride (Ex).

Woodland Stride (Ex)

Starting at 2nd level, a druid may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her.

(Emphasis mine)

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Excluding dex & dodge bonuses? At around level 9-10 (since WoT is a 5th level spell) it's possible certainly but I wouldn't say probable. Especially for the barbarian. Even with a high strength they will likely be stuck in the wall for at least a few rounds, getting pummeled by ranged spells and attacks from the druid's party.

The spell doesn't exclude natural armor or deflection bonuses. So fighting types are going to have armor + deflection (rings of protection) + natural armor (amulets of natural armor). I'd definltely say probable.

Note that Wall of Thorns, in its own description, notes that it isn't actually a plant. Unlike Entangle, it doesn't use actual plant material to create an effect. i.e. it's not terrain magically manipulated to impede motion (such as an entangle spell creates.) It's a spell that impedes movement. Normally, then, Woodland Stride wouldn't come into play.

However, from the Wall of Thorns description: "Creatures with the ability to pass through overgrown areas unhindered can pass through a wall of thorns at normal speed without taking damage." Woodland Stride allows druids and rangers to pass through overgrown areas unhindered. Thus, by Wall of Thorns' own description, Woodland Stride immunizes druids and rangers against it.

Seems crystal clear to me. Woodland Stride trumps Wall of Thorns, intentionally so.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, the "Creatures with the ability to pass through overgrown areas unhindered can pass through a wall of thorns at normal speed without taking damage." part cannot mean much else.

About the line of sight issues, I would probably let more than 5 ft. block line of sight and line of effect.

That part about magical fire is a bit silly, tho. So, a bunch of Fireballs or a Meteor Swarm do nothing against it, unless you apply them throughout a period of 10 minutes!?

Also the time to cut through it seems a bit excessive... that's longer than you would need to get through an iron or stone wall.

Bye
Thanee

 

[beaver1024]

It's a druid spell what do you expect? Something balanced?

 

[Asmo]

It's a druid spell what do you expect? Something balanced?

The sound of a bitter DM ?

Asmo

 

[Philip]

That part about magical fire is a bit silly, tho. So, a bunch of Fireballs or a Meteor Swarm do nothing against it, unless you apply them throughout a period of 10 minutes!?

I always read it that once you set the wall on fire with magical fire, you have to wait for 10 nminutes until the wall is competely burned down. One fireball, and then a long wait....

 

[IndyPendant]

The biggest differences between Wall of Force and Wall of Thorns tho is a) Wall of Force must be a flat plane, b) WoF doesn't restrict movement other than crossing the barrier, c) WoF doesn't damage you for *trying* to move, and d) WoF lasts for just over a minute, not *hours* of permanent trappage.

No, upon further thought, I think I would change the spell in this manner:

1) It does not block LoS or LoE, even if by RAW it was intended to.

2) Once set aflame, it burns like normal plants would. (This one raises alarm bells in me however: I have visions of trapping people in there and then burning them alive by setting fire to the spell. So looking for other ideas here.)

3) You can take a full-round action to push 5' through the thick plants, plus an extra 5' for every 5 points you beat a DC 20 Str check. Attempting this causes damage as normal for the spell.

4) If at least 5' of plants separate you and your target, your target has cover vs your attacks.

The rest of the spell descript (including 10 min chopping for 1' safe path) is as is.

What do you think?