Interaction of True Resurrection and Reincarnation

[Scharlata]

Good morning t'all philosophers out there in the multiverse!

Yesterday my character was kindly true resurrected by a high-priest/king of sorts. The royal resurrector cast true resurrection in front of the dead halfling body of my recently reincarnated human mystic theurge.

We dedided to ask for the sagacity of all learned EN-worlders first before we decide what really happened, because after re-reading the reincarnation and resurrection spells some academic question arose.

The spell reincarnation (PHB, p. 270) says: "Since the dead creature is returning in a new body [...]." and "The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit [...].

The spell true resurrection (PHB, p. 296) says: "This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased's time and place of birth or death [...]."

What happens when you true resurrect a reincarnated body?

1.) The dead body of a reincarnated character is the body in which the true resurrected character comes back from the dead.

2.) The recently slain body is irrelevant. The character comes back from the dead in his original body, no matter how many times he was reincarnated/raised etc.

3.) The character or the resurrector may select to which body the character comes back from the dead, as he/she sees fit.

4.) The resurrector decides which body will be the receptable for the soul he tries to bring back from the dead. If he uses the body at hand (reincarnated form) that character comes back to that body. If no body is at hand (destroyed beforehand or simply not available) the true resurection forms the original body for the soul to return from the dead.


I'd like to know what your wise rule/opinion/answer may be.

Kind regards

 

[Marimmar]

IMHO the soul would be resurrected inside the reincarnated (new) body since that body is the body of the character at the time of his death and it was given as something beneficial, not harmful like a baneful polymorph.

This is not based on rules anywhere, just MHO.

~Marimmar

 

[Thanee]

Human. The body is irrelevant for True Resurrection.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

First of all, for anything to happen, the human mystic theurge would need to die. You can't resurrect (IMO) someone if their soul/spirit is actually in a body.

Secondly, Reincarnate states: "A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form."

This would suggest that that is the only way for a reincarnated character to return to his original body.

AR

 

[Zaister]

The human mystic theurge did in fact die, and he was reincarnated as a halfling recently. Now that halfling has been slain and then brought back to life by a true resurrection spell.

The point about wish and miracle is valid, anlthough in my opinion true resurrection is almost on par with these spells in power.

I am the DM in that campaign, BTW, and I'm leaning towards deciding that the target of the true resurrection comes back in his true, i.e. original form, which I find to be in flavor with the spell - especially, as Thanee noted, the body is basically irrelevant for the casting of this spell. We were on the look-out for something that would definitely say something to the contrary.

Regards,
Zaister.

 

[Laman Stahros]

The human mystic theurge did in fact die, and he was reincarnated as a halfling recently. Now that halfling has been slain and then brought back to life by a true resurrection spell.

The point about wish and miracle is valid, anlthough in my opinion true resurrection is almost on par with these spells in power.

I am the DM in that campaign, BTW, and I'm leaning towards deciding that the target of the true resurrection comes back in his true, i.e. original form, which I find to be in flavor with the spell - especially, as Thanee noted, the body is basically irrelevant for the casting of this spell. We were on the look-out for something that would definitely say something to the contrary.

Regards,
Zaister.

I would have to say that it would be halfling body that is the form that comes back. I think is true because of the following:

1) the spell was cast in front of the halfling body.

2) the soul was reincarnated, thus making the halfling body the new true body.

YMMV

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I disagree with much of the above.

True Resurrection will only work on a "bodiless spirit," for want of a better term, if that body has been destroyed. Otherwise, it functions like Raise Dead (uses the body at hand).

That being said, your MT has been reincarnated. He is now, for all intents and purposes, a halfling. When you cast the spell, he returns to life - as a halfling.

If he wants his original body back, he needs to reverse the effects of the reincarnation - which, as the spell mentions, requires a Wish or a Miracle.

 

[DreamChaser]

True Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.
You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.
Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age.
Material Component: A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp.

emphasis mine

The scenario would go like this, IMO.

Because the body is present (and is halfling) at the time TR was cast, the spell would bring the character back as a halfling. Had the party informed the royal resurrector that the character was once human and wished to return as such, provided they had the specific information needed, the caster could choose to call upon the power of the spell to resurrect the missing body. This is not, however, an automatic feature of the spell and requires the caster to choose to do it.

I personally think it a little silly that the priest was willing to cast TR on a character who's body was present. I understand the whole level loss thing but why the hell would the royal explorer care? But that is neither here nor there.

By the wording of the spell, you're still a halfling unless the caster specifically decided BEFORE casting the spell that he wanted something else.

DC

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

At this point I'm just going to point out the ramifications of some things.

Reincarnate can be used to avoid dying to old age. You get a brand new young adult body.

What happens when somebody who's used reincarnate to extend his lifespan gets True Ressurected?

Does the man on his fifth body get his first one back....with all the attendant age?

 

[frankthedm]

Body comes back as halfling. Requires wish or miracle to return the halfling to a human.

Respawning [true rezzing] should not be used a cure all, its costs pay for not loosing a level and full body rebuild . It is quite strong enough.

This is why you can say "No" to being reincarnated.


True Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.
You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.
Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age.
Material Component: A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp.

Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
A miracle can do any of the following things.
• Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
• Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
• Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
• Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.
• Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
• Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
• Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost: 5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above).