Instating Gun Kata into D20

[Priest_Sidran]

Looking for some brainstorming on how to capture the cinematic Gun Fu style of martial arts found in Hong Kong cinema, and in the Matrix, Equilibrium, and Ultraviolet into a fantasy (steampunk) style setting.

Perhaps the simplest way is to add in Fighting Style feats related to such a style of martial arts. This would be very effective for the cinematic element, and would be fairly painless as far as game change. The drawbacks of using Fighting Styles for this is that it doesn't open the concept enough for those who seriously love the martial art form.

A Class is the next simplest way to go about Gun Kata, or more appropriately a Core Class Variant. This would be more appropriate than fighting styles, though more time consuming to do. While the focus is obviously on the technique, I might suggest that both Class, and Feats be used to accomplish certain elements of the style of fighting. For some it is as simple as looking to other game material already in existence (Spycraft, D20 Modern) etc.

Anyways I look forward to your discussion.

For those who don't know what Gun Fu is, go here

 

[Storyteller01]

One place to look might be the movie 'the quick and the dead'. Kurt Russel's character does some smoothing shooting at the end you might like. A member on the wizards site developed a gunslinger character class you might also be interested in. The Dragon Star OGL game has the Gun Dancer PrC. Starts with the Gun Fu ability, as well as combines some nice magical abilities (absorb enery attack, haste, a ranged whirlwind attack, etc). I can type up the last if you're interested.

My biggest hurdle with this dealing with reloading. Steam punk style guns weren't speed loaders. What tech are you using?

 

[Priest_Sidran]

Thanks for the reply, and the heads up...

I am dealing with some "fantasy" steampunk like weapons (not really very helpful I know...) The idea is that I want the action of those movies incorporated into the game, reloading is one of the many things I like about the Gun Kata, that is missing in DND.

The guns of which I speak are more like modern handguns though they have the feel and look of the Swashbuckling stuff as seen in artwork in Iron Kingdom PHB, or of some of those fire and drop like weapons from Three Muskateer Movies.

I like the Gun Mage, from Iron Kingdoms PHB, and I have seen the Gun Slinger. I am actually wanting something that works within the framework as set in Equillibrium. The weapon style in that movie is used as a way of making the combat at any range more fluid, and make it so that the weapon always ends pointing at an enemy. It is much more like a real martial arts, in thought and body movement, than other movies I have seen.

PS Out

 

[Storyteller01]

Haven't seen the movie, although it is on my net-flix list.


One thought might be to use pre-loaded revolver cylinders on a belt. As the cynlider assembly pops out (some are removable with one hand, and it is a fantasy setting anyway) the character slides the pistol into a wiating cylinder pouch. Might be the closest thing you can get in an IK setting, at least for that small a firearm.

You might look into incorporating the revolver into a blade weapon as well. Gives you some options while you reload.

 

[phindar]

Completely unrelated side note: Russell Crowe was in the Quick and the Dead. Kurt Russell was in everything else.

Mostly unrelated side note: Back in SR3, we incorportaed gun-fu into our games by allowing characters to use their unarmed and armed combat skills to counter successes from opponents in melee who were trying to shoot them. It worked pretty well for our purposes, but it seems like there were a lot of melee gunfights going on in those days. (Good times.)

As it is, I'd be tempted to make a character with TWF, Improved Unarmed Strike and a gun; or a monk with flurry of blows and a feat that makes the gun a monk weapon. (It's a stretch, but we're in the House Rules section, so stretch away.)

 

[Storyteller01]

Completely unrelated side note: Russell Crowe was in the Quick and the Dead. Kurt Russell was in everything else.

Thanks. Knew there was a Russell in there somewhere...

 

[GreatLemur]

I like the Gun Mage, from Iron Kingdoms PHB, and I have seen the Gun Slinger. I am actually wanting something that works within the framework as set in Equillibrium. The weapon style in that movie is used as a way of making the combat at any range more fluid, and make it so that the weapon always ends pointing at an enemy. It is much more like a real martial arts, in thought and body movement, than other movies I have seen.

So the big question would be exactly what kind of mechanics that translates into.

I haven't seen Equillibrium, but I used to be a big Hong Kong blood opera junkie. Every Chow Yun Fat ganster/cop character certainly had a crazy-high BAB, Weapon Focus: handgun (and the rest of that feat tree), Two Weapon Fighting (and the rest of the tree, limited to handguns), some kind of Monk-like AC bonus (possibly limited to ranged attacks?), maybe some kind of mobility-related abilities (you could say the old slide-while-shooting move let him take a full-round attack while moving slightly more than a five-foot step, but only in a straight line, possibly with some more AC bonuses against ranged attacks), and maybe some kind of offense-as-defense "cover fire" abilities (where he becomes harder to hit because he's shooting at you while you're trying to aim).

Really insane mobility also seemed to be a big part of the gunfights in the Matrix, so Spring Attack would be great, and Monk-style speed bonuses, Slow Fall, and Leap of Clouds (from 3.0) might be appropriate. Also, there have got to be some appropriate skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel.

As phindar mentioned, a Flurry of Blows for guns would be pretty perfect. The ability to fire off a lot of shots really quickly could be self-balancing, too, since it would force frequent reloads.

I get the impression that part of what you want to encourage would be melee-range gunfights, so I guess it's kind of obvious that your gunfighter characters should be able to shoot without provoking a ranged-weapon-in-melee attack of opportunity (not that firing something as easy to use as an automatic ought to provoke and AoO, anyway). Also, some ability that tricks enemies on opposite sides of the character into shooting each other would be pretty great (I think there are a few feats like that out there already).

If you're going to go the class route (as opposed to just making some feats), you might want to consider something like the alternate BAB progression thing that the Iron Heroes Archer class does; I think it's straight fighter BAB for melee weapons and an even better progression for ranged weapons. (This only avoids being completely insane because it's Iron Heroes. For your purposes, Rogue BAB with most weapons and Fighter BAB with guns--including guns used in melee--would probably be the best way to go.)

It also might not be a bad idea to look into the Tome of Battle martial arts system. Mind you, that whole book completely ignored the existence of ranged weapons, but stances and maneuvers look like a great way to achieve a very kung fu feel. I could easily imagine applying those kinds of mechanics to guns.

 

[Henry]

One variant to check and see if you can oncorporate into your games is Morgenstern's Grammaton Cleric for Spycraft 2.

http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9483&start=25&sid=73259197bffae4e585b0504fdfe8c7f4

It's written for Spycraft, but there are some great mechanical ideas in there. Having seen one in action in a one-shot or two, a mid-level Grammaton Cleric DANCES around the battlefield, plugging away like a lethal ballerina. In a game where everyone's such a character, or who have equal value off the battlefield, that's great, but in a party with others who are combat-horses but not of that PrC or style, there may be problems.

 

[Priest_Sidran]

So the big question would be exactly what kind of mechanics that translates into.

I haven't seen Equillibrium, but I used to be a big Hong Kong blood opera junkie. Every Chow Yun Fat ganster/cop character certainly had a crazy-high BAB, Weapon Focus: handgun (and the rest of that feat tree), Two Weapon Fighting (and the rest of the tree, limited to handguns), some kind of Monk-like AC bonus (possibly limited to ranged attacks?), maybe some kind of mobility-related abilities (you could say the old slide-while-shooting move let him take a full-round attack while moving slightly more than a five-foot step, but only in a straight line, possibly with some more AC bonuses against ranged attacks), and maybe some kind of offense-as-defense "cover fire" abilities (where he becomes harder to hit because he's shooting at you while you're trying to aim).

Really insane mobility also seemed to be a big part of the gunfights in the Matrix, so Spring Attack would be great, and Monk-style speed bonuses, Slow Fall, and Leap of Clouds (from 3.0) might be appropriate. Also, there have got to be some appropriate skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel.

As phindar mentioned, a Flurry of Blows for guns would be pretty perfect. The ability to fire off a lot of shots really quickly could be self-balancing, too, since it would force frequent reloads.

I get the impression that part of what you want to encourage would be melee-range gunfights, so I guess it's kind of obvious that your gunfighter characters should be able to shoot without provoking a ranged-weapon-in-melee attack of opportunity (not that firing something as easy to use as an automatic ought to provoke and AoO, anyway). Also, some ability that tricks enemies on opposite sides of the character into shooting each other would be pretty great (I think there are a few feats like that out there already).

If you're going to go the class route (as opposed to just making some feats), you might want to consider something like the alternate BAB progression thing that the Iron Heroes Archer class does; I think it's straight fighter BAB for melee weapons and an even better progression for ranged weapons. (This only avoids being completely insane because it's Iron Heroes. For your purposes, Rogue BAB with most weapons and Fighter BAB with guns--including guns used in melee--would probably be the best way to go.)

It also might not be a bad idea to look into the Tome of Battle martial arts system. Mind you, that whole book completely ignored the existence of ranged weapons, but stances and maneuvers look like a great way to achieve a very kung fu feel. I could easily imagine applying those kinds of mechanics to guns.

I am indebted to you for this advice, thank you...

Lets start the process,

Should a Gun Kata Expert (Name Lacking) Core Class get the following

1. Fighter BAB, or Cleric BAB?
2. Good Fort?
3. Good Ref?
4. Good Will?

5. Should it get the use of Exotic Weapon (Firearms) Feat, or should it just get a Weapon Focus (Firearm) feat? At First Level?

6. While I agree with this advice, should it get Monk Speed bonuses, or Barbarian Fast Movement?

7. New Thought, Bond with Gun? Should the gun(s) become like a "familiar" to the Character

8. Should it include Dual Wield Options?

Discussions welcome

PS Out

 

[The Truth]

I drafted a gun-fu monk variant for my steampunk campaign that you may be interested in. It's a little rough (and hasn't seen the light of game), but here it is:

MONK VARIANT: THE BULLET MONK

In your hands, a mundane firearm becomes a sleek and stylish instrument of death. You possess a innate level of skill in gun combat that outstrips those who with conventional training. With this variant, you loose many of the magical abilities of the monk class but become a mystical, gritty gunfighter.

If you select this class variant, you gain the following set of class features.

• Flurry of Bullets: Use your flurry of blows base attack for firearms instead of unarmed strikes. These attacks can be made with any guns you hold; use this ability instead of the conventional two-weapon fighting rules. This ability replaces Flurry of Blows.
• Unarmed damage: This value applies to both your unarmed strikes and attacks with a firearm (if higher). In the second case, light firearms are considered to be one size smaller and two-handed ones one size large for the purposes of this damage.
• At first level, you gain Firearms Proficiency as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites. You can also draw firearms as a free action. This benefit replaces you normal bonus feat on first level.
• At second level, you gain the supernatural ability to dodge bullets or the projectiles created by the magic missile spell. Whenever you would be hit by an attack from a firearm, you may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + half the attacker's Base Attack Bonus + attacks Dex modifier) to instead dodge the attack. This ability can be attempted any number of times in a round. You do not need to be aware of the firearm attack to use this ability (and you can use it even when flat-footed), but you must be able to move freely (ie, not tied up, sleeping, or encumbered).
• Reload on the Run: Whenever you make a move action, you can reload a firearm as a swift action (assuming it doesn't require more than a standard action to reload). You gain this ability instead of Still Mind.
• Ki bullet: Your ki strike benefits apply to both your unarmed and firearm attacks.[/li]
• Purity of Ammunition: Your mystical bond to blackpowder weapons prevents them from functioning improperly. Firearms you wield never misfire. You gain this ability in place of Purity of Body at 5th level.
• At 6th level, you get Close Combat shot as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites. This replaces you 6th level bonus feat. (This homebrew feat allows you to use light firearms in melee without provoking an attack of opportunity.)
• Cover Magnet: When you get the benefits of cover, increase the AC bonus you gain from cover by 2. This ability replaces Diamond Body at 11th level.
• Wall Run: You are able to run up extremely steep and even verticle surfaces. Treat such surfaces as difficult terrain (requiring two squares of movement per 5 ft). You must make Balance checks if you wish to run up slippery surfaces. If you end your turn running up a wall, you can either stop to climb or keep on running, in the second case, you must make a Wisdom check (DC 10) or immediately fall. This ability replaces Abundant Step at 12th level.
• Run and Gun: The bullet monk has no time to stop and fight. With this ability, the bullet monk can fire his weapons while on the move. If he takes a double move action in a round, he may also make a single firearm attack as a swift action. If he spends a full action to attack with firearms, he may make a single move action as a swift action. The firearm attacks must be at the start or end of the monk's movement unless he possesses the Shot on the Run feat. The bullet monk gets this ability instead of Diamond Soul at 13th level.
• Flawless Shot: Once per day, the bullet monk may concentrate and make a single, perfect attack with his firearm. Using this ability is a full round action and cannot be combined with the Run and Gun ability. The monk makes a single attack with a +20 insight bonus to the attack roll; if the shot hits, it is an automatic critical threat (roll again, with the +20 bonus, to confirm). All forms of miss chance—be it concealment or incorporealness—are ineffective against Flawless Shot. It also bypasses the Dodge Bullets ability of other bullet monks. Additionally, if the attack is successful you may make a bull rush, trip, or disarm attempt against the target, posing no additional danger to you. This ability is usable once per day, and replaces Quivering Palm at 15th level.
• Third Eye: The bullet monk adds his Wisdom modifier to damage dealt with by firearms. This ability replaces Timeless Body at 17th level.
• Hurricane of Destruction: The bullet monk is always under the effects of a haste spell. This ability replaces Empty body at 19th level.