Inspire Courage + Greatness + Heriocs

[Artoomis]

Mind you , my DM won't allow this , but, by the rules, could one have inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics all going at once?

It requires a Standard Action to activate each of these, but no action is required to maintain them.

However, "...Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. "

But.. these are all Supernatural abilities, which are not covered by the above.

It looks to me like, by the rules, you could start inspire Courage and then, the next round, add in Inspire Greatness and then, the next round, add in Inspire Heroics.

Furthermore, you could do this ahead of time (negating any reasonable change at sneaking around due to the noise) and enter combat with all three going at once.

Of course it would use up a number of the daily bardic music uses, but when combined with some bardic music optimization, could be quite powerful at high level.

At, say, 18th level with a party of six characters and some bardic music optimization, it would be easy to enter combat with +5 attack, +5 damage from Courage, +3 more attack from Greatness and +5 to all saves (plus more Fort bonuses) and AC at a cost of 5 daily uses (out of 18) of bardic music.

I'd say that's pretty darn good! This example is only with minor and very reasonable optimization, one could do even better.

 

[Mistwell]

Mind you , my DM won't allow this , but, by the rules, could one have inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics all going at once?

Of course. And they are meant to be done that way. And why WOULDN'T your DM allow it?

It requires a Standard Action to activate each of these, but no action is required to maintain them.

However, "...Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. "

When you stop your bardic music, it still lasts for 5 rounds after that point (or 10 rounds with Lingering Spell feat). So, none of that has anything to do with the abilities being able to stack or being triggered one after the other. That IS what the bard does! It's the bard's primary thing!

But.. these are all Supernatural abilities, which are not covered by the above.

It looks to me like, by the rules, you could start inspire Courage and then, the next round, add in Inspire Greatness and then, the next round, add in Inspire Heroics.

Yes, absolutely, that is the plan man.

Furthermore, you could do this ahead of time (negating any reasonable change at sneaking around due to the noise) and enter combat with all three going at once.

Well yes, but the clock is ticking on each one running out. You cannot MAINTAIN multiple bardic musics at the same time, since all bardic musics lasts for 5 rounds after you stop singing (or 10 with Lingering Song) OR start a new bardic music (since you cannot sing two at once), unless you have an ability that lets you maintain more than once at a time. There are several places you can find such an ability, such as the Seeker of the Song prestige class from Complete Arcane (2nd level ability Combine Songs), or I know there is a feat in one of the Dragon magazines that lets you spend more bardic music attempts to maintain more than one.

Of course it would use up a number of the daily bardic music uses, but when combined with some bardic music optimization, could be quite powerful at high level.

Do you really feel you need more than 5-10 rounds after you start the effect at higher levels? That battle will be over long before that anyway. There is really no need to worry about the time limit on bardic music effects, just stack them up and let them go to town. If you can get more than one going in the same round, that would be useful. Seeker of the Song helps with that, and the Song of the White Raven feat from Book of 9 Swords also helps with that since you can stop (and then end immediately) a bardic music as a swift action using that feat, and then start (and end) another one as a standard action as normal.

At, say, 18th level with a party of six characters and some bardic music optimization, it would be easy to enter combat with +5 attack, +5 damage from Courage, +3 more attack from Greatness and +5 to all saves (plus more Fort bonuses) and AC at a cost of 5 daily uses (out of 18) of bardic music.

I'd say that's pretty darn good! This example is only with minor and very reasonable optimization, one could do even better.

You can do a LOT better. Heck, I am doing a lot better at 9th level.

 

[Artoomis]

...Well yes, but the clock is ticking on each one running out. You cannot MAINTAIN multiple bardic musics at the same time, since all bardic musics lasts for 5 rounds after you stop singing (or 10 with Lingering Song) OR start a new bardic music (since you cannot sing two at once), unless you have an ability that lets you maintain more than once at a time. ...

Ah, but you seem to have missed my point.

As written, you can maintain mutiple songs at once, if none of them require concentration. That's that way it is written, and that's what I am not allowed to do by my DM (which I am not trying to overrule; that ship has sailed ).

As written, you can have Courage, Greatness and Heriocs all maintained at the same time as long as you do not do one of the things that you are not allowed to do while maintaining bardic music. That would be any of "...cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word." Using a Supernatural ability (like another of the "Inspire" bardic music abilities) is not on the list!

Right?

 

[Nifft]

As written, you can maintain mutiple songs at once, if none of them require concentration. That's that way it is written

That's not the way I read it.

Bardic Music is a single ability. Nothing allows you to use that ability in combination with itself.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

That's not the way I read it.

Bardic Music is a single ability. Nothing allows you to use that ability in combination with itself.

Cheers, -- N

Interesting approach, but flawed by, among other things, the fact that each bardic music ability is distinct from the others. "Bardic Music" is no "an ability," but "Inspire Greatness" is an ability.

Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects .... Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify; if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic music ability until he acquires the needed ranks.

Thus Inspire Courage is an ability and inspire Greatness is another ability.

As written, stating Inspire Greatness after Inspire Courage does not "start the clock" on Inspire Courage running out. At least I think that is so, and so far see nothing to indicate otherwise.

I think I am stuck with my DM prohibiting this in my game, but it's a great opportunity for others...

 

[s-dub]

I agree with Nifft. That's like using rage twice and wanting +8 str and con.

 

[Cobblestone]

Round 1: Inspire Courage
Round 2: Inspire Competence

Do we have a problem with that too?

If the bard doesn't have to be playing his instrument for the effects to linger for another five rounds, why can't he strike up a new tune?

Peace,

C-Stone

 

[s-dub]

Agreed; he can strike up a new tune, but he has to stop the old first

There's no "twisting" of bard songs in DnD =P

This of course assuming no feats/PrC's

 

[Artoomis]

I agree with Nifft. That's like using rage twice and wanting +8 str and con.

No, it's not.

Inspire Courage is an Su ability, with specific rules about what you cannot do and still maintain the "song."

Using another Su ability is allowed - it does not require stopping the "song."

Inspire Greatness is a Su ability. It would seem, therefore, that one can start Inspire Greatness without stopping the Inspire Courage.

Whether you consider this reasonable or not is not the question - is it allowed by the rules as written is the question.

So far no one has indicated how, within the rules, this would not be allowed.

 

[Nifft]

Inspire Courage is an Su ability, with specific rules about what you cannot do and still maintain the "song."

How many times per day can you use this discrete Su ability?

-- N