In over your head - Underwater adventuring

[Greenfield]

We have a Dm who likes to throw us off our stride, usually by trying to change the rules in unexpected ways.

His current attempt is an underwater adventure where we can't seem to find out what rules he's using.

One oddity that comes up though is weapon use and damage.

By the DMG, Stormwrack and Planar Handbook, melee weapons can be a real problem.

Slashing and bludgeoning weapons are at -2 to hit and half damage. Piercing weapons, work normally. Sort of makes sense, if you've ever been swimming you know how the water hampers movements.

But the you think about weapons like the Morningstar, the Scythe, and the Spiked Chain. All do piercing damage (the Scythe can also do Slashing), yet you swing all of them in ways that the water should hamper.

The problem, of course, is that the rules don't make a distinction based on how the weapon is used, just by the type of damage that results.

Then there's that famous (or infamous) table in the DMG

Table 3–22: Combat Adjustments Underwater
————— Attack/Damage —————
Condition ... ... ... ...... Slashing or Bludgeoning ... Tail ... ... ... ... Movement ... Off Balance?4
Freedom of movement .. normal/normal ... ... ... ...normal/normal normal ... ... ... No
Has a swim speed ... ... ... –2/half ... ... ... ... ... ...normal ... ... ... normal ... ... ... No
Successful Swim check ... .–2/half1 ... ... ... ... ... –2/half ... ...quarter or half2 ... ...No
Firm footing3... ... ... ... ... –2/half ... ... ... ... ... .–2/half ... ... ... ...half ... ... ... ... No
None of the above ... ... ... –2/half ... ... ... ... ... .–2/half ... ... ... .normal ... ... ... .Yes
1 A creature without a freedom of movement effects or a swim speed makes grapple checks underwater at a –2 penalty, but deals damage normally
when grappling.
2 A successful Swim check lets a creature move one-quarter its speed as a move action or one-half its speed as a full-round action.
3 Creatures have firm footing when walking along the bottom, braced against a ship’s hull, or the like. A creature can only walk along the bottom if
it wears or carries enough gear to weigh itself down—at least 16 pounds for Medium creatures, twice that for each size category larger than
Medium, and half that for each size category smaller than Medium.
4 Creatures flailing about in the water (usually because they failed their Swim checks) have a hard time fighting effectively. An off-balance creature
loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and opponents gain a +2 bonus on attacks against it.

The "None of the Above", taken at face value, suggests that if a character doesn't even attempt a swim check (so they neither succeed nor fail), has no Freedom of Movement, nor a Swim Speed, and has no firm footing, they can move at normal speed, unimpeded by the water.

In practice though I think it's referring to creatures under a Fly effect, or using some other motive technique not listed.

So, thoughts on how weapon damage issues could/should be fixed? Other issues?

 

[Lwaxy]

Oh that's a real headache. You really need to look at each weapon/weapon type individually. I haven't gotten to completing that yet, but in general, only slender piercing weapons get no penalties, anything that had volume so water hampers it get a -5 (because a -2 really is nothing. Try moving anything under water).

Also, Freedom of Movement, in my games, for it to work there needs to be an active or passive attempt at something holding you, as in becoming entangled or grappled. Water does not do that so FoM has no effect on it.

 

[Greenfield]

When I got Stormwrack I'd hoped it would do more with underwater environments, but it's mostly about adventuring *on* the water, not in the water.

They added some spells, items, monsters and weapons but basic rules for movement and combat remain unclarified.

You can apparently stab with a short sword (piercing weapon), but not with a long sword.

If it were me making the rules:

I'd suggest that we distinguish between "Piercing" and "Thrusting". It still begs the question of moving a thrusting weapon into line to target the opponent. So maybe penalize all reach weapons' attack rolls for that reason, while penalizing damage for anything other than thrusting weapons.

Whips, spiked chain and lariats should be useless in the water. All ranged weapons should have their range cut by 90% (and even that's generous). It should depend on the weight of the weapon: A spear will carry better in the water than an arrow, but you have to swing your arm to throw it, so I'm really not comfortable with that solution either.

Lacking anything actually elastic to make something like a Hawaiian Sling fishing spear (powered by a piece of rubber surgical tubing in modern versions), the ranged weapon of choice would be something like an oversized crossbow that shoots javelin sized harpoons.

I'd add a DC 15 concentration check for most spells: Water can ruin material components, can hamper movements and gestures for spells with somatic components, and can burble the words of verbal components. No problem speaking if there's a Water Breathing spell up. No problem with gestures with Freedom of Movement. No problem with materials in an Airy Water area.

Still, there is the question: A person with Freedom of Movement falls out of a boat: Do they drop to the bottom, unsupported and unresisted by the water, so it's treated as a fall? or do they swim as fast as they could walk or run? People have been debating that one for a while.

And what happens with a Bag of Holding or Handy Haversack in the water? If you open one while under water it seems like it should fill with water. That however would overload the weight limit for every one of them: A gallon weighs 8 pounds. A cubic foot is seven gallons and seven pints, or about 63 pounds (approximately). Doesn't take many cubic feet to top the bag's weight limit and cause it to rupture.

Or does that only apply when you're trying to lift the bag out of the water? (Should we be foolish enough to try and apply physics to a magical environment, we'd note that the water in the bag isn't actually in any kind of equilibrium with the "water around the bag", since the volume inside the bag isn't displacing any of the water on the outside. It's an extradimensional space, surrounded not by water, but by, well, extradimensional space.)

Better to just hand-wave that one, I think.

 

[Lwaxy]

I try to apply physics whenever possible. And yeah, the water issue - hence my environment rule. And yeah, open a bag of holding under water -or a portable hole for that matter - and the water gets in.

I have a group with a live-in portable hole with a hole - while air gets in,water also does,and they were really surprised by this when they took it under water the first time.

Good point about thrusting weapons. There are ranged weapons which would work ok under water, if you make them for the water specifically that is, but... then there is the water which has much more chance to have it all go wrong with water flow.

I tried to make somewhat realistic rules for whips and chains etc under water, but we all got such a headache over that. I need to finish my work on that before starting an underwater campaign. But that probably means I won't do another one anytime soon.

But considering from among the players wanting to play a certain undersea campaign none has bought the books legally yet, I might not even need to worry haha.