Improved Trip as part of Aoo

[Bouncer]

Hi guys!

Please help me with this ruling: Can you use Improved Trip or Improved Disarm as part of Aoo? More specific, enemy provokes an attack of opportunity. You have the Imroved Trip Feat. You trip your opponent as Aoo and you get a free attack against him as a prone target. Is this correct?

Now, lets assume that you trip him. He has only used a move action so far. Can he try to get up as a move action? Does he provoke a new Aoo if you have combat reflexes?


Thank you for your answers

 

[Pyrex]

Yes. You can trip or disarm (or sunder or grapple) as an AOO. You don't even need the 'Improved XXXX' feat to do so.

When you successfully 'Improved Trip' someone you gain an immediate attack against them, even if the IT was initiated as an AOO.

If he uses another move action to stand and you have Combat Reflexes (3.5) you can AOO him (with an Improved Trip again if you like) again.

Yes, Improved Trip is even more cheesy in 3.5 than in 3.0.

 

[Unseelie]

Yes. You can trip or disarm (or sunder or grapple) as an AOO. You don't even need the 'Improved XXXX' feat to do so.

When you successfully 'Improved Trip' someone you gain an immediate attack against them, even if the IT was initiated as an AOO.

If he uses another move action to stand and you have Combat Reflexes (3.5) you can AOO him (with an Improved Trip again if you like) again.

Yes, Improved Trip is even more cheesy in 3.5 than in 3.0.

Oh, and don't forget that your AOO for him getting up can, indeed, be another trip attempt which would then allow you to follow it with yet another attack if you have Improved Trip.

If you have a PC or PCs that are taking serious advantage of Trip, may I suggest the prone fighting feat from Complete Warrior.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Oh, and don't forget that your AOO for him getting up can, indeed, be another trip attempt which would then allow you to follow it with yet another attack if you have Improved Trip.

Actually, you can't take the AoO for standing up as a trip (or more precisely, it does no good).

In game, the AoO occurs before the action that provokes it resolves. You provoke the AoO by standing up. In order to be able to stand up, you can't currently be standing. (And you aren't standing (but are prone) until the AoO resolves). So, the stander is prone when the AoO occurs. After the AoO occurs, the stand up action resolves and the character is standing. Since the character is already prone at the time of the AoO, tripping him then doesn't change anything.

If you have a PC or PCs that are taking serious advantage of Trip, may I suggest the prone fighting feat from Complete Warrior.

Another good idea is throwing in a mix of non-humanoid foes. A giant, minotaur, ogre, etc is very difficult to trip (and remember--Imp Trip doesn't remove the possibility of being tripped in return). So are dwarves, derro, druergar, etc. Incorporeal creatures can't be tripped. And four (or more) legged creatures are very difficult and risky to trip too. Bears, lions, dogs, hippogriffs, Remorhaz, purple worms, carrion crawlers, etc are very difficult to trip. And creaturest that don't really have a discernable anatomy probably can't be tripped either. Tripping a gibbering mouther or any ooze is pretty much impossible to imagine.

If you insist on throwing primarily humanoid foes at your PCs, you'll find that some abilities (like Imp Trip, Imp disarm, and enchantment spells, etc) are overly powerful and some (like Improved Turning, Extra Turning, and many favored enemy choices) are much less powerful or even useless. That's not necessarily because of a design flaw, however. It's because the game balance assumes a variety of encounters and games that deviate strongly from that will find that the balance shifts as well. (Just like Great Cleave is much more useful in campaigns that reliably feature hordes of enemies and Spring Attack is more useful in campaigns that regularly feature lone, overwhelming foes).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes. You can trip or disarm (or sunder or grapple) as an AOO.

... except the Sunder part.

-Hyp.

 

[Grayhawk]

Actually, you can't take the AoO for standing up as a trip (or more precisely, it does no good).

In game, the AoO occurs before the action that provokes it resolves. You provoke the AoO by standing up. In order to be able to stand up, you can't currently be standing. (And you aren't standing (but are prone) until the AoO resolves). So, the stander is prone when the AoO occurs. After the AoO occurs, the stand up action resolves and the character is standing. Since the character is already prone at the time of the AoO, tripping him then doesn't change anything.

Has there been an official ruling on this, or is it your own reading of the rules?

While I can follow your logic, I think it's flawed.

It's true that an AoO is resolved before the actions that triggers it, but that doesn't mean that it takes place before that action, rather I'd say it takes place during. (See the 'An AoO "interrupts" the normal flow of actions...' and 'if the AoO was provoked in the midst of a character's turn' in the PH p.137.)

Take the example of a spell caster triggering an AoO by casting. If that AoO takes place before the caster actually starts casting, how can it disrupt the spell?

The AoO is only resolved prior to the spell to see if it affects the spell.

In the same way, it seems logical that the action of standing draws an AoO which is resolved during the act of standing to see whether that AoO has an effect on the attempt to get up, by making a trip attempt, for instance.

If nothing else, it seems perfectly realistic that you should be able to knock someone down as they're trying to get up.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Has there been an official ruling on this, or is it your own reading of the rules?

It's a situation that has been the topic of several long debates since 3.5 came out.

The last Customer Service ruling I saw was that yes, you can Trip on the AoO for SUFP, and that if successful, their action is effectively wasted - they're still prone at the end of the action.

But Customer Service quotes never settle anything around here

-Hyp.

 

[Grayhawk]

It's a situation that has been the topic of several long debates since 3.5 came out.

I know. I started one myself on another board some time ago, presenting the view that Elder-Basilisk holds above, and due to the replies I got then I chose my own stand on this (being that you can trip as an AoO on an attempt to get up.)

Now, my only problem with this is, should the defender of this trip attempt get the -4 penalty to his AC for being prone or not?

Obviously he isn't really prone, yet he isn't really standing either.

It makes sense that it's easier to trip someone on their way up compared to someone already standing, so maybe we should split the difference and make the penalty to AC -2 in this particular situation? (Obviously, this would be a houserule.)

 

[Bouncer]

Page 142 i PHB under Move Actions states that you can crawl 5 feet as a move action and you provoke an Aoo from any characters that threatens you under your move.

So, my now tripped character crawls out of threatened area (with a -4 penalty to AC due to being prone), receives Aoo from all his enemies nearby and moves out of threatened area without anyone being able to trip him (he is already tripped and prone). In his next move action, he stands up and hopes for the best(out of reach for tripping characters). Is this a valid option?

The other tactic to try to stand up in the same hex where you were tripped has the advantage of being able to hit back if standing up is successful. In light of why a trip attack is initiated, namely to make enemy a prone target, my question is:

A)if you are prone (-4 modifier to AC) when you try to stand up and receive the Aoo, the Aoo trip attack is not a valid attack type. You are already prone.

B)If you are NOT prone (0 modifier to AC) when you try to stand up and receive the Aoo, the Aoo trip attack is a valid attack type.

Am I correct in my assumption?

Thanks
Bouncer

 

[Darklone]

Page 142 i PHB under Move Actions states that you can crawl 5 feet as a move action and you provoke an Aoo from any characters that threatens you under your move.

So, my now tripped character crawls out of threatened area (with a -4 penalty to AC due to being prone), receives Aoo from all his enemies nearby and moves out of threatened area without anyone being able to trip him (he is already tripped and prone). In his next move action, he stands up and hopes for the best(out of reach for tripping characters). Is this a valid option?

Yes. Though he can't do much else and his opponent may try to trip him again, so nothing is won (except keeping the enemy busy and hoping that your buddies will kill him).

The other tactic to try to stand up in the same hex where you were tripped has the advantage of being able to hit back if standing up is successful. In light of why a trip attack is initiated, namely to make enemy a prone target, my question is:

A)if you are prone (-4 modifier to AC) when you try to stand up and receive the Aoo, the Aoo trip attack is not a valid attack type. You are already prone.

??

B)If you are NOT prone (0 modifier to AC) when you try to stand up and receive the Aoo, the Aoo trip attack is a valid attack type.

Am I correct in my assumption?

Thanks
Bouncer

Why standing up if you are not prone? Sitting?